INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

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INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby qreeves » 16 May 2016 09:41

A user by the name of CZAR on Wikipedia recently (Feb 2016) removed all the content for the Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article and pointed it at "List of major Creative Commons licensed works" (which is incorrect, Red Eclipse is ZLIB, only some of the content is CC). When this was challenged today, the user then submitted the article for deletion. I could use some help from someone more familiar with Wikipedia as I only know parts of the policy involved here (and I have managed so far to stay within them despite accusations of "Conflict of Interest"). This user seems very hostile and intent on "winning the argument" at all costs, despite the fact we already have a few reputable sources which have reviewed the game and me following the policies which govern this process.

If you're going to join the discussion, I suggest you make your bias known from the start as this user will definitely call you out on it (and will likely see this forum post as well). I am not required to mention it in all my comments as the information is available on my Wikipedia User page as defined in WP:COI. We should try to collect as much information as possible and make an attempt to highlight the reputable sources for information. Please do not do anything that violates Wikipedia policies, and if in doubt, ask here first. The purpose of this topic is to encourage a positive outcome for the project's article while following the rules of Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Red_Eclipse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Red_Eclipse

EDIT: Strikeout added (argumentative and unjustified).
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby bonifarz » 16 May 2016 11:00

I thought it when I first saw this redirect: "It's a shame". This entire discussion >_<

I hope we manage to get one or the other new review for the next release, maybe that will help to add something to list of references.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby Jfault » 16 May 2016 17:45

Woah this exploded o.o

TBH we do have a lack to reliable sources by Wikipedia standards... CZAR is not wrong about that.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby FaTony » 16 May 2016 17:55

It would be a shame if this article would be deleted. That's how I stumbled upon this game.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby ShaneRoach » 17 May 2016 01:09

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Last edited by ShaneRoach on 19 May 2016 05:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby qreeves » 17 May 2016 02:42

ShaneRoach wrote:Keep: notability given as enough independent reception is findable via google. e.g. Red Eclipse, An Open Source FPS by Rock, Paper, Shotgun Shaddim (talk) 21:00, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
That was one of the three announcements discussed. czar 22:23, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

These are two separate comments, the first line is the 'keep' argument (and that RPS article is unfortunately not a proper review) by "Shaddim", the second line is "Czar" dismissing it (note the indentation indicating a reply).
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby ShaneRoach » 17 May 2016 03:22

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Last edited by ShaneRoach on 19 May 2016 05:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby shirepirate » 17 May 2016 04:51

so why is it being deleted because of a lack of reviews from reliable sources? is this supposed to implicate that the game doesn't exist or something? seems a little backwards. i mean, it obviously exists, so there are obviously reliable sources somewhere to indicate thusly. a game needs an assload of media coverage these days to warrant a wikipedia page? <.< it's worth noting that many significant and well-experienced wikipedia editors have seen the page and thought the sources to be reliable enough over the past several years before some overzealous deleter came along. a quick glimpse into past interactions in his talk page is enough to verify that.

anyway, here's more reviews that haven't even been mentioned in the talk page yet:

https://www.maketecheasier.com/red-ecli ... ource-fps/
http://www.thule.it/linux/engredeclipse.html
http://egmr.net/2012/09/indie-review-red-eclipse/
http://www.rockybytes.com/red-eclipse
https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/ ... g-fps.6019
http://www.gamebuntu.ru/review/red-ecli ... log-quake/
http://game400.com/video-game-review/red-eclipse#1
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby bonifarz » 17 May 2016 06:51

I wonder if foreign language reviews will be of relevance as well.
I think iceflower has a good overview of german articles, but I think in-depth reviews are rare.
Maybe there are also some articles in Russian or Portuguese... what does our community say?
EDIT: I see, there's already one such article in above list.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby Evropi » 17 May 2016 11:06

As a Wikipedian, I must confess this made me extremely angry and I held off from responding because I knew I couldn't trust myself to hold a debate that I could win. I thought that RPS article would be enough, though admittedly RPS often writes about shovelware and jam-games because they find them amusing. I do believe RE is notable within our niche but it's clear he won't be satisfied without really notable sources.

I saw the conversation here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... _from_Czar

Frankly I'm not sure if it qualifies as harassment; you need hard evidence of that. I believe it harms more than it helps your case, to be honest.

I agree Czar's behaviour is bizarre. There is a sea of open source projects that are much more obscure and less cited than Red Eclipse is. I have no idea why he targets us specifically. I can't add anything to the conversation without possible COI (worth noting I wrote some of that page myself), but there you have it.

bonifarz wrote:I wonder if foreign language reviews will be of relevance as well.
I think iceflower has a good overview of german articles, but I think in-depth reviews are rare.
Maybe there are also some articles in Russian or Portuguese... what does our community say?
EDIT: I see, there's already one such article in above list.

Absolutely, but they should be halfway notable. Ideally, the sources themselves should have pages on Wikipedia. That's almost always enough to shut people up. I have no idea why he doesn't accept a source as prominent as Rock Paper Shotgun.

EDIT: Scratch that, I will make that point about RPS.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby bonifarz » 17 May 2016 11:53

Evropi wrote:Ideally, the sources themselves should have pages on Wikipedia. That's almost always enough to shut people up.

There is an extremely short, but favorable review on chip.de
http://www.chip.de/downloads/Red-Eclips ... 22095.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_%28magazine%29

Similar thing here, but the source only has a german wiki article
http://red-eclipse.giga.de/
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIGA

I think iceflower caught the attention of these guys:
https://www.freeware.de/download/redeclipse
i don't see a wiki article for the source, but the german wikipedia article about sauerbraten refers to this source as well.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby qreeves » 17 May 2016 13:33

Note to all: Please try to avoid getting caught in the trap of responding to (false) accusations and puffery. It is a distraction from the topic at hand, which is finding notable sources and contributing usefully.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby FaTony » 17 May 2016 19:09

It's foolish to blindly vote "Keep". We need to find reliable sources covering RE instead.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby Jfault » 17 May 2016 21:11

Just a quick note to everyone here: DO NOT VOTE KEEP!!! That would be a clear violation of WP:CANVAS! It's probably okay for us to find more sources together, that's not influencing the discussion inappropriately.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby ShaneRoach » 17 May 2016 22:40

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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby Jfault » 17 May 2016 23:31

woah... woah... woah... slow down there Shane. While what Czar is doing might be a little too much, in general what they and the other admins do is quit good work enforcing the usually completely reasonable guidelines. On the other hand, I do believe that the "Notable" and "Reliable Sources" definitions should be updated as to accommodate subjects that are less in the media's attention but still important. That being said, Czar has a (somewhat) reasonable reason to delete the RE wiki entry, as we did indeed have a lack of good sources. There's a reason that, yes, although Wikipedia has it's flaws, any encyclopedia will need tight restrictions on quality of content and Wikipedia has been doing a pretty good job at this for a while.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby ShaneRoach » 18 May 2016 00:32

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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby qreeves » 18 May 2016 01:37

The whole system has been engineered to exclude anyone who hasn't been directly involved with writing the policy added: It is certainly hard to contribute for anyone who isn't familiar with Wikipedia policies. There are hundreds, if not thousands of WP:* pages, and to voice your opinion on a subject you're expected supposed to be intimately aware of each and every one of them. I think Czar has purposely involved his friends in order to assert his own agenda of getting rid of anything that doesn't pass his impossibly high standards; which is highly skewed by the fact he is involved with OpenCritic, gets money from unknown sources which are likely associated with commercial games, and has no requirement to disclose that because no proof can be found.

I agree the voting to keep is fairly pointless, and I never encouraged anyone to do that, all it did was get me accused of canvassing - which I didn't. I tried to get people who actually knew the subject to contribute meaningful sources they might know of. It just reinforced Czar's argument that the the community, including myself, should be excluded from the discussion because of bias. You need to see this behaviour for what it is; a deliberate and intentional attempt to derail the conversation in their favour by distracting us with accusations and arguments. The longer we cater to their behaviour, the less time we have left to focus on the topic at hand.

I don't agree with their behaviour, and I do find it very upsetting that they treat people in this manner when the policy states they should be acting in good faith and not go throwing unfounded accusations around. The problem is they are admins and don't have to follow their own rules, so it is utterly pointless to even debate those issues. They (and their friends) hold the power to decide which policy gets followed and by who, because they are all admins, so their decisions will always be heavily biased toward protecting their own people rather than treating other editors with dignity and respect. This just contributes to their own dwindling pool of editors, and the same thing happens in open source - the longer a project is around, the more people get attracted to being in it just to be in a position of power, and those who aren't following that path are quickly berated into not wanting to contribute anymore. Therefore it will always have an elitist attitude unless something drastic changes.

The whole reason I started this project was to do things differently. I don't believe in the elitism that is overly prevalent in open source communities, and everyone should be treated equally. I know this doesn't always work in practice, but at least I don't let myself get too caught up in it and manage to treat people with respect, new and old. We're better than them that, let it be like water off a duck's back. If we're not notable now, perhaps we should make more of an effort to attract legitimate journalists to review the game properly; the mistake we've made is promoting releases, which these people simply chalk up to "release announcements which carry no review information" and are not notable enough to satisfy their skewed criteria. And no, you can't make the argument "Article X has less notable references than our Y", it doesn't work that way.

EDIT: Strikeout added (argumentative and unjustified).
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby ShaneRoach » 18 May 2016 01:46

If there's any one person I am sorry to have disappointed here it would be you, Reeves.

If I could go back and take back what I have done I would. But on the other hand, like I said, it royally pisses me off.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby qreeves » 18 May 2016 04:11

ShaneRoach wrote:If there's any one person I am sorry to have disappointed here it would be you, Reeves.

Don't worry about it, and please, call me Quin.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby czar » 18 May 2016 06:58

ShaneRoach wrote:If I could go back and take back what I have done I would.

You can strike your comments with `<s></s>`. In fact, I think it would be a nice gesture to revise some of the assertions you've made both here and there.

qreeves wrote:... but at least I don't let myself get too caught up in it and manage to treat people with respect, new and old. We're better than them ...

I hope you can see how "treating people with respect, new and old" is at odds with thinking that you're "better than them" and just about everything else demonstrated in this thread.

When the copyleft lines up in a firing squad, it always lines up in a circle.

The saddest part about this whole ordeal is that I actually align with this community's work. For all of your expressed disdain of commercial works, I have released hundreds of game assets under free use licenses. I have helped find sources for a great number of dispossessed games (and I'm quite good at it, such that a few individuals—not companies—have even chosen to support my work, which I disclose). I remain more than happy to help and would have at least explained any of the Wikipedia processes or my actions had anyone even asked. I volunteer my time just as you do, and I open myself to discussing Wikipedia policies and improving articles whenever anyone wants, but just look at the vitriol in this thread (and how only one person has even attempted to abate it). Look at the accusations about my work and the thankless work of many contributors, yourselves included. (The irony is that when you insult articles about small indie games, you insult articles about games like RE as well... and also ignore other articles of real depth and import.)

There is no conspiracy at foot here. Quin's thread in Wikipedia's equivalent of the town square brought more outside editors to the article than I could have (that's why they said it boomeranged on you). In fact, I did not contact any other editor. We have dozens of regular discussions like this every week, but never in my years has a community responded with such hostility and presumption of bad faith. And on what evidence? Did you even know that I was drafting a section on the game when it was redirected? Or that I prepared to use footage from RE to illustrate other concepts in the encyclopedia? Or was this all based on presumption? On the other hand, look at this thread for examples of the contrary, if only in the (wholly unfounded) accusations about my character. I already feel unwelcome here, so unless I'm invited back, this is my unsolicited advice in parting: This thread—its unsubstantiated attacks and this whole event—reflect poorly on the RE community. Is this really the public face you want to show, and what are you hoping to get out of it? That much is in your control.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby bonifarz » 18 May 2016 07:12

ShaneRoach, some of your longer comments would be easier to read if you used the QUOTE button. You can even link the source in the [ quote ] block,for example
Code: Select all
[quote="on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Red_Eclipse CZAR"]Red Eclipse is on the list of CC works though, so it's a relatively worthwhile redirect there, though I imagine that list will eventually adopt the same rules as the other list for inclusion. czar 16:29, 15 May 2016 (UTC)" [/quote]

will look like this:
on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Red_Eclipse CZAR wrote:Red Eclipse is on the list of CC works though, so it's a relatively worthwhile redirect there, though I imagine that list will eventually adopt the same rules as the other list for inclusion. czar 16:29, 15 May 2016 (UTC)"

I agree that the list of open source games (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_o ... ideo_games) is also important here, maybe even more than the actual article. But the former seems to require the latter, at least that has been claimed. I think Red Eclipse should really stay on that list. B.t.w., iceflower has a bunch more of links to share, maybe that will help. We should focus on convincing them with facts.
EDIT: Sorry for the typos. I'll just dump icy's list here to speed things up. Please note that I have not checked these yet.
in a PM iceflower wrote: English Sites with Red Eclipse online presence, review or information:

http://egmr.net/2012/09/indie-review-red-eclipse/
http://game400.com/video-game-review/red-eclipse#1
http://gamejolt.com/games/red-eclipse/73896
http://www.desura.com/games/red-eclipse
http://www.freewarefiles.com/Red-Eclips ... 73363.html
http://www.indiedb.com/games/red-eclipse/
http://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details ... lipse.html
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/red-eclips ... oter-game/
http://www.playdeb.net/app/Red%20Eclipse
http://www.rockybytes.com/red-eclipse
http://www.thule.it/linux/engredeclipse.html
https://apps.ubuntu.com/cat/application ... edeclipse/
https://redeclipse.itch.io/red-eclipse
https://sourceforge.net/projects/redeclipse/
https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/ ... g-fps.6019
https://www.maketecheasier.com/red-ecli ... ource-fps/


Russian language Sites with Red Eclipse online presence, review or information:

http://www.gamebuntu.ru/review/red-ecli ... log-quake/
http://kanobu.ru/games/red-eclipse/
http://igronomicon.org/linux/game/red-eclipse/
http://vk.com/red_eclipse
http://coop-land.ru/allgames/action/373 ... lipse.html


German Sites with Red Eclipse online presence, review or information:

http://www.computerbild.de/download/Red ... 40219.html
http://www.chip.de/downloads/Red-Eclips ... 22095.html
http://red-eclipse.de.softonic.com/
https://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Spiele/Red_Eclipse/
https://www.freeware.de/download/redeclipse/
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby qreeves » 18 May 2016 07:54

czar wrote:I hope you can see how "treating people with respect, new and old" is at odds with thinking that you're "better than them" and just about everything else demonstrated in this thread.

Well it is easy to take that out of context, there was no specific "them" here other than "being better than assuming an elitist attitude", and we should all try to be better people in the end. I'm sorry if that part in particular offended you.

czar wrote:The saddest part about this whole ordeal is that I actually align with this community's work.

The whole thing spiralled out of control because of the initial assumption of "bad faith" on both our parts, we both thought we had done the right thing and were upset the other didn't see that. I've never tried to conceal my identity when having these discussions, and I've actually made it a point to try to adhere to Wikipedia policy as much as possible when I do interact with it. I read WP:DISCLOSE literally and thought that it was enough to put this information on my user page as it describes, because during these discussions everyone always vets the other by checking out their user page. There was no conspiracy on my behalf either to throw flames on the fire, I've just wanted help finding and vetting reliable sources of information from those who knew the subject matter. It was especially distressing that the whole topic had derailed into an argument rather than being about what matters; information and consensus.

czar wrote:There is no conspiracy at foot here. Quin's thread in Wikipedia's equivalent of the town square brought more outside editors to the article than I could have (that's why they said it boomeranged on you). In fact, I did not contact any other editor. We have dozens of regular discussions like this every week, but never in my years has a community responded with such hostility and presumption of bad faith. And on what evidence?

I'm well aware it boomeranged on me (we throw them around here in Australia as kids), but the consistent aggressive editing on both our parts was fuelling a fire that was derailing the topic, and I thought that was intentional because you just wanted to be right about the decision you made rather than contribute all this meaningful information you say you have. The only evidence we had was the assumption we both had about each other regarding "bad faith" in our editing. I was upset, and unfortunately I have a very deep connection with my community, so they got upset because I was. Involving them in my personal feelings was a mistake, and while it may not be an excuse, I do have bipolar disorder and have a tendency to overreact sometimes when emotions run high. It's that "mania" that has driven the last 11 years of work it has taken to create the project as you see it today. Yes, I have been at it that long for just one game, and I am still going because there is still so much room to grow.

czar wrote:Did you even know that I was drafting a section on the game when it was redirected? Or that I prepared to use footage from RE to illustrate other concepts in the encyclopedia? Or was this all based on presumption? On the other hand, look at this thread for examples of the contrary, if only in the (wholly unfounded) accusations about my character. I already feel unwelcome here, so unless I'm invited back, this is my unsolicited advice in parting: This thread—its unsubstantiated attacks and this whole event—reflect poorly on the RE community. Is this really the public face you want to show, and what are you hoping to get out of it? That much is in your control.

How were any of us to know this? You haven't contributed it to the conversation that is specifically about that kind of stuff. The only editing you've really done is to create an air of hostility regarding our contributions, and to highlight each and every little thing with policy, again because we were both acting on the assumption of "bad faith" and maintaining an argument instead of a productive discussion. I have no intention of excluding anyone from this community unless they break the policies we have in place; the community is the people who help maintain, play, and evolve the game on a daily basis. You can feel as welcome or as unwelcome as you want, it's all about how we both go about our behaviour from here I guess.

Are you going to contribute usefully to the discussion on the AfD page? I've already dropped all the arguments and complaints (as well as added more anti-anxiety meds) in order to focus on doing that.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby qreeves » 18 May 2016 08:05

bonifarz wrote:I agree that the list of open source games (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_o ... ideo_games) is also important here, maybe even ore than the actual article. But the former seems to require the latter, at least that has been claimed. I think Red Eclipse should really stay on that list. B.t.w., iceflower has a bunch more of links to share, maybe that will help. We should focus on convincing them with facts.

That's probably the most useful thing anyone has added to this discussion to date. The fact it was pointing to a "CC" page rather than a general "Free" and/or "Open Source" one was very disturbing and distressing to those of us who have a broader understanding of open source licensing (by necessity too, I might add). Perhaps it is better to make the argument that the list of open source games be less restrictive with its inclusion criteria?

I've gone to great lengths to specify that Red Eclipse source code, configuration, etc. is under a ZLIB license, while the content that is assigned to the project is CC-BY-SA, and content by other authors may have different licensing, with the only provision that the license be CC-BY-SA equivelant or less restrictive than and an implied condition that no "non-commercial" licenses are allowed. This is both to enhance exposure and general use by the development community at large, which Microsoft Research kindly demonstrated when they chose Red Eclipse as their "go-to" demo for IllumiRoom. I knew in that moment I had met my goal with the project licensing and far exceeded the expectations I ever had.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby freezurbern » 18 May 2016 11:51

czar wrote:Did you even know that I was drafting a section on the game when it was redirected? Or that I prepared to use footage from RE to illustrate other concepts in the encyclopedia?


Hi! If this footage you speak of is of good quality, may I ask that you share it over on the Trailer Quality Media topic? It is two years later, and I would still love to see us having a nice trailer for the game.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby ShaneRoach » 18 May 2016 14:15

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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby bonifarz » 18 May 2016 15:03

ShaneRoach wrote:I am not the only person who has noted the degeneration of Wikipedia.

How does that help the topic?
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby ShaneRoach » 18 May 2016 15:07

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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby bonifarz » 18 May 2016 15:44

ShaneRoach wrote:Yeah... forgot all about the quote blocks. I have no defense but emotional distress.

Heheh, I did not complain, I just wanted to give you a hint. And hey, don't let that entire discussion annoy you. Maybe we don't "need" that wiki article, but I think it is preferable to work together and have several ways to raise the player base, which indeed could grow a little. And hey, it should not be that hard to convince people of RE's relevance. At least, that's what i hope.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby ShaneRoach » 18 May 2016 16:14

deleted by poster
Last edited by ShaneRoach on 19 May 2016 05:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby FaTony » 18 May 2016 17:24

We just need to get a decent media coverage and then restore the article.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby ShaneRoach » 18 May 2016 17:43

deleted by poster
Last edited by ShaneRoach on 19 May 2016 05:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby qreeves » 19 May 2016 03:23

ShaneRoach: It would have been nice if you had followed my lead and dropped the argument instead of continuing to be hostile to Czar when he made an attempt to explain himself and extend the olive branch, which I might add, he was under no obligation to do.

EDIT: Thanks ShaneRoach, I appreciate it. I have changed my "vote" to delete. I think we need to focus on the new release and then move on to promoting RE better.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby bonifarz » 19 May 2016 10:21

qreeves wrote:I have changed my "vote" to delete.

Why? I thought it would be reasonable to neither use the DELETE nor the KEEP tag, but add a COMMENT that helps the wikipedians to come to a fair conclusion. I think shirepirate's latest comment there works pretty well in this sense, thanks.
qreeves wrote:I think we need to focus on the new release and then move on to promoting RE better.

Nobody could disagree here :D
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby ShaneRoach » 19 May 2016 14:37

qreeves wrote:ShaneRoach: It would have been nice if you had followed my lead and dropped the argument instead of continuing to be hostile to Czar when he made an attempt to explain himself and extend the olive branch, which I might add, he was under no obligation to do.

EDIT: Thanks ShaneRoach, I appreciate it. I have changed my "vote" to delete. I think we need to focus on the new release and then move on to promoting RE better.


I will probably purposefully avoid future involvement with promoting RE. I think I have exhausted all avenues for now. Unless you want the face of RE to be a pit bull... :D I'll be in my corner learning to model.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby qreeves » 20 May 2016 02:38

bonifarz wrote:
qreeves wrote:I have changed my "vote" to delete.

Why? I thought it would be reasonable to neither use the DELETE nor the KEEP tag, but add a COMMENT that helps the wikipedians to come to a fair conclusion. I think shirepirate's latest comment there works pretty well in this sense, thanks.

Because when emotions run high you make mistakes, and mistakes cost everyone in the end. As someone with a diagnosed mental illness, my heart goes out to people who get caught up in things like this, and I'd rather contribute to the greater good by turning the other cheek, than be the leader of a lynch mob. Should our ongoing efforts mean that in the end Red Eclipse becomes more notable, then that's a good thing for everyone, isn't it?
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby bonifarz » 25 May 2016 12:50

For those who have not followed the deletion discussion: It has been relisted yesterday, so they have not come to a conclusion so far.
Furthermore, a wikipedian known as Shaddim has contributed some interesting points to both, the discussion and the actual article, such as a section about the IllumiRoom paper: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... =720471243
So, there are people who care for the project.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby qreeves » 26 May 2016 02:58

While it is good to see this happening (and I appreciate them restarting the discussion from scratch), I'm staying out of it this time :P
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby ShaneRoach » 26 May 2016 06:34

I do appreciate Bonifarz keeping the RE community updated. :D
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby bonifarz » 02 Jun 2016 15:23

Well, I didn't really expect this, but they decided to delete the article.
Maybe we can get it back when there are more "reliable sources" *shrug*
I should have made a copy of shaddim's revision. Anyway.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby ShaneRoach » 02 Jun 2016 23:39

bonifarz wrote:Well, I didn't really expect this, but they decided to delete the article.
Maybe we can get it back when there are more "reliable sources" *shrug*
I should have made a copy of shaddim's revision. Anyway.


I think there is a way to get ahold of the revised edition from a moderator there if you managed to keep a decent relationship with some of them. I had started to put the old Wikipedia entry on our Wiki, but I lack the appropriate permissions.

Using the wayback machine you can at least get a copy of the old entry you can use to paste to RE's wiki if you want.

https://web.archive.org/web/20151124015 ... ed_Eclipse

RE is easy to find for people interested in open source FPS games regardless.
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby Jfault » 02 Jun 2016 23:52

Well, can't say I'm really surprised.

NEXT UP: get notable!
Keep calm and eat fruit.

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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby qreeves » 03 Jun 2016 01:10

Who cares. Their behaviour is too antagonistic and I don't think we should waste any more time trying to convince people who have already made up their minds. We're at the top of search engine results anyway, that's what matters. After all this, I'll probably avoid Wikipedia entirely now; politics and encyclopaedia are two words that should never be in the same sentence (unless it is an article about politics, I guess).
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby bonifarz » 13 Jun 2016 13:06

Agreed :)

I have just seen that this story still has not come to an end yet. But almost. There's a deletion review discussion (nothing new to find there, though) and the article's history has been restored for now. They are probably going to delete it again, so I'll dump the wikitext source here, since it's not exactly straight forward to reverse engineer from the cached site.

Code: Select all
<!-- Please do not remove or change this AfD message until the issue is settled -->
{{Article for deletion/dated|page=Red Eclipse|timestamp=20160516023305|year=2016|month=May|day=16|substed=yes|help=off}}
<!-- Once discussion is closed, please place on talk page: {{Old AfD multi|page=Red Eclipse|date=16 May 2016|result='''keep'''}} -->
<!-- End of AfD message, feel free to edit beyond this point -->
{{unreliable sources|date=February 2016}}
{{Infobox video game
| title     = Red Eclipse
| image     = Red Eclipse.png
| caption   = The Red Eclipse logo
| developer = Quinton Reeves, Lee Salzman
| engine    = [[Cube 2: Sauerbraten|Cube Engine 2]]
| released = '''Version 1.0''': <br/> {{date|2011-03-26}} <br/> '''Version 1.5.3 (''Stable'')''': <br/> {{date|2015-07-17}}
| genre     = [[First-person shooter]], [[Third-person shooter]]
| modes     = [[Multiplayer]], [[Single-player]]
| platforms = [[Cross-Platform]]
}}

'''''Red Eclipse''''' is a [[Cross-platform|multi-platform]], [[Free software|free]], and [[open source]] [[first-person shooter|first-person]] arena shooter that runs on a somewhat modified [[Cube 2: Sauerbraten|Cube Engine 2]]. The game is centered on [[multiplayer]] based action, but can also be played offline against [[Computer game bot|bots]].<ref name=PCGamer/>

== Gameplay ==
[[File:Red Eclipse screenshot (Elara 1.4.1).png|thumb|Red Eclipse screenshot (Elara 1.4.1)]]
''Red Eclipse'' is a multiplayer first-person arena shooter with a style of play comparable ''[[Quake III Arena]]'' or ''[[Unreal Tournament]]'',<ref name=indiegamereviewer/><ref name=MikeSchramm/> though the lead developer claims it was intended as a subversion of common mechanics in the arena FPS subgenre.<ref name=QuintonComparison/>

The game consists of a variety of [[Game mode#Game modes|modes]], which can be extended with any of fourteen "mutators". For example, the "Deathmatch" mode can be used in conjunction with the "Instagib" and/or "Survivor" mutators, changing how the game is played. This allows players to experience more flexibility and variety when playing the same mode. There are also seven mode-exclusive mutators, which can only be played in certain modes.

Aside from the more traditional modes of its genre - among them "[[Deathmatch (gaming)|Deathmatch]]", "[[Capture the flag|Capture the Flag]]", and "Defend and Control" (akin to [[King of the Hill (game)|King of the Hill]]), ''Red Eclipse'' offers two more modes of play. "Bomber-Ball" pits two teams against one another with the objective of throwing the bomb into the enemy team's "goal" before it explodes, and "Race", in which players race through a map to compete for the best times or number of laps.

Bots are also available for all modes and mutators when teams are short of human players, as well as for offline practice matches.

''Red Eclipse's'' weapon arsenal consists of a pistol, sword, shotgun, submachine gun, flamethrower, plasma gun, zapper, rifle, grenade, mine and rocket launcher,<ref name=reweapons/> each with primary and alternate methods of attack. Weapons also have variables that can be changed on a server level that alter to change their behavior, such as particle size, accuracy, the reload and fire rates, and damage. Players with the correct level of access can modify these on-the-fly during a game to change the gameplay experience.

Red Eclipse also has some support for [[Cube 2: Sauerbraten|Sauerbraten]] maps, allowing players to play various Sauerbraten maps. However, due to Sauerbraten not having the same movement and game mechanics and weapons, the maps often don't play too well in Red Eclipse.

=== Movement and physics ===
The game's "Impulse" and [[parkour]] systems allow the player a variety of ways to move about a level via wall-kicking, wall-running, dashing on the ground and mid-air, and double-jumping.<ref name=indiegamereviewer/> Similarly to the weapon variables, there is also a list of environmental variables, allowing players to easily create their own unofficial modes. Variables pertaining to physics, such as jump height or distance, movement speed, and gravity.

=== Game modes and mutators ===
''Red Eclipse'' has six different game modes excluding the in-game editor and demo: Deathmatch, [[Capture the Flag]], Defend and Control, Bomber-ball and Race.

By default, the game is on team play. In addition to the game modes, there are mutators which extend the game modes with many possibilities, for instance [[Cooperative gameplay|Coop]] or ''All vs. All''. Furthermore, ''Red Eclipse'''s individual modes could have multiple "mutators" enabled or disabled to extend the mode, such as having Capture the Flag with the Instagib, Teamplay, and jetpack mutators, which enables one-shot-one-kill styled gameplay, and players to fly around.

==Development==
''Red Eclipse'' started as derivative of the [[Cube 2: Sauerbraten]] [[game engine]]<ref name=indiegamereviewer/><ref name=MikeSchramm/> around 2007 under the name ''Blood Frontier''.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20071109122420/http://www.bloodfrontier.com/ bloodfrontier.com] in the [[Internet Archive]] (2007)</ref> Early pre-releases emerged around 2009.<ref name="phoronix2009">[http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=blood_frontier&num=1 Blood Frontier: The Latest Open-Source FPS] by [[Michael Larabel]] on [[phoronix.com]] (1 February 2009)</ref><ref name="gamestar2009"/>

When the ''Blood Frontier'' development ended,<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20111009113726/http://www.bloodfrontier.com/ bloodfrontier.com] in the [[Internet Archive]] (2011)</ref> the project was [[Fork (software)|continued]] under the name ''Red Eclipse'' in Spring 2010.<ref>[http://quadropolis.us/node/418 Red Eclipse] on quadropolis.us ''"This is a continuation of the now-terminated Blood Frontier project."''</ref> Red Eclipse's version 1.0 was released on the 15th of March, 2011.<ref name="RPS2011">[https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/20/red-eclipse-an-open-source-fps/ Red Eclipse, An Open Source FPS] on [[Rock, Paper, Shotgun]] by [[Jim Rossignol]] (March 20, 2011)</ref>
In 2014 Debian decided to consider Red Eclipse fully [[Free Software]] and included it in their repository.<ref name="debian2014">[https://lists.debian.org/debian-news/2014/msg00013.html Debian Project News - September 29, 2014] on list.debian.org ''"* redeclipse — multiplayer FPS game based on Cube2 [146]"'' (September 29, 2014)</ref> This was after a years long discussions if Red Eclipse's freely licensed art content (e.g. [[Blender (software)|Blender]] renderings) without sources can be considered "free" according to their [[DFSG]].<ref>[http://redeclipse.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=299 Red Eclipse now in Debian main] on redeclipse.net (August 15, 2014)</ref>

In May 2015 the game's source code was migrated to [[Github]] from a [[Sourceforge]] repository.<ref>[https://sourceforge.net/projects/redeclipse/ Red Eclipse] on [[sourceforge.net]]</ref><ref>[https://github.com/red-eclipse Red Eclipse] on [[github.com]]</ref>

The game is developed by the game's community following the [[open-source model]] with the [[source code]] available under the [[Permissive software license|permissive]] [[zlib License]], and the game data assets mainly available under the [[copyleft]] [[Creative Commons licenses|CC-BY-SA-3.0]].<ref name=redeclipse_license/>

== Map editor ==
[[Image:Screenshot of Fortitude,a Red Eclipse map,being edited.png|thumb|320px|Red Eclipse uses the Cube 2 engine's map editor, which allows for maps to be easily made in-game]]
''Red Eclipse'' retains the Cube 2 engine's built-in map editor,<ref name=geeky/> in which the player can to fly around the game world manipulating and deforming volumes referred to as cubes. This, as well as weapon and other entity placement is achieved in real-time, and can be done cooperatively online with other players as well. [[Artificial Intelligence|AI]] "waypoints" can also be generated dynamically as the map is played. Lighting is accomplished through precomputed [[lightmap]]s. Each cube-shaped node in the [[octree]] represents a renderable volume, simply referred to as a ''cube''. Each edge of this cube can be lengthened or shortened to deform the cube into a variety of other shapes. Corners of cubes can also be "pushed" or "pulled" to create crude curves.

The [[WYSIWYG|what you see is what you get]] realtime editing ability  enables level designers to add a plethora of detail to maps, while reducing the time spent on actual creation. This is in contrast to the traditional modern [[polygon soup]] 3D engines which take a model generated as an essentially random batch of triangles from an external modelling program, and attempt to [[spatial subdivision|spatially subdivide]] the model's triangles after the fact by splitting them to fit into tree structures, such as a [[binary space partitioning|BSP tree]] or even an [[octree]], that require costly pre-processing to render.

==Technical details==
[[Image:Sauer editing-1--.png|thumb|140px|right|An example of a primitive cube subdivision provided by Cube 2 engine]]
''Red Eclipse'' utilizes the Cube 2 engine, which uses a 6-directional heightfield (or [[octree]]) world model. An octree in Red Eclipse is a cube that can be split into eight smaller cubes that can then be done the same to. This allows for complex level geometry and easier editing which can be accomplished through the game's built in editor.

===Rendering engine===
The original ''[[Cube (video game)|Cube]]'' engine's rendering engine assumed that overdraw (where polygons that do not appear in the final scene are occluded via the [[z-buffering|z-buffer]]) was more processor-intensive than sending new streams of triangles to the graphics processing every frame, which limited its performance on more modern hardware where [[memory bandwidth]] is a greater limiting factor. Instead, ''Red Eclipse'' uses the [[Rendering (computer graphics)|rendering engine]] in Cube 2, which is designed around modern graphics processing units, which perform best with huge batches of geometry already stored in video memory. Lighting is precomputed into [[lightmap]]s—image files that correspond to geometry as textures—for efficient batching, with an additional stored directional component, that allows for efficient [[shader (computer science)|shader]]-based lighting effects.

== Reception and impact ==
[[File:IllumiRoom.png|thumbnail|[[Microsoft Research]] [[IllumiRoom]] [[proof-of-concept]], on the screen Red Eclipse (2013)]]
Early pre-releases of Red Eclipse, then under the name ''Blood Frontier'', were reviewed by [[Phoronix]] and the Hungarian [[Gamestar]] website in 2009.<ref name="phoronix2009"/><ref name="gamestar2009">[http://www.gamestar.hu/hir/blood-frontier-ingyenesen-letoltheto-43295.html Blood Frontier: ingyenesen letölthető!] on [[Gamestar]] (in Hungarian, December 2009)</ref> Red Eclipse's version 1.0 release on end of 2011 was noted by several gaming news outlets.<ref name="RPS2011"/><ref name=MikeSchramm/> In 2012 [[C't]] and [[derStandard.at]] reviewed Red Eclipse 1.3 and noted positively two new modes, "King-of-the-hill" and "Coop".<ref>[http://www.heise.de/open/meldung/Red-Eclipse-Neue-Version-des-Open-Source-Shooters-1704782.html Red Eclipse: Neue Version des Open-Source-Shooters] on [[Heise.de]] by Liane M. Dubowy (11.09.2012)</ref><ref>[http://derstandard.at/1347492385485/Open-Source-Shooter-Red-Eclipse-in-neuer-Version Open-Source-Shooter "Red Eclipse" in neuer Version] on [[derStandard.at]] (September 3, 2012)</ref> In October 2013 ''Red Eclipse'' was favourably reviewed by German [[computer magazine]] [[Chip.de]].<ref>[http://www.chip.de/downloads/Red-Eclipse-fuer-Windows-Galactic-Edition_48022095.html Red Eclipse for Windows] ''"Die CHIP Redaktion sagt: "Red Eclipse" ist ein kostenloser Open-Source-Ego-Shooter, der durch viele Maps und eine rasante Spielmechanik punktet."'' on [[Chip.de]] (in German, October 2013)</ref>

Red Eclipse was included by several [[digital distribution]] providers: [[itch.io]],<ref>[https://redeclipse.itch.io/red-eclipse red-eclipse] on [[itch.io]]</ref> [[Desura]]<ref>[http://www.desura.com/games/red-eclipse/news/free-red-eclipse-published-on-desura free-red-eclipse-published-on-desura] on [[Desura|desura.com]] (2011)</ref> and several [[linux distribution]]s' repositories ([[Debian]],<ref name="debian2014"/> [[Ubuntu (operating system)|Ubuntu]] etc.)<ref>[https://apps.ubuntu.com/cat/applications/redeclipse/ redeclipse] on apps.ubuntu.com</ref>

In 2013 ''Red Eclipse'' was used by researchers of the [[University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign]] and [[Microsoft Research]] for the creation of [[IllumiRoom]], a [[augmented reality|augmented]] [[television]] screen with projectors project.<ref>{{cite web |title=Microsoft IllumiRoom is a coffee table projector designed for the next-generation Xbox |url=http://www.theverge.com/2013/4/29/4281228/microsoft-illumiroom-table-projector-for-next-xbox |author=Tom Warren |work=[[The Verge]] |publisher=[[Vox Media]] |date=29 April 2013 |accessdate=29 April 2013}}</ref><ref name="CHI2013Paper">{{cite journal |last1=Jones |first1=Brett R |last2=Benko |first2=Hrvoje |last3=Ofek |first3=Eyal |last4=Wilson |first4=Andrew D |year=2013 |title=IllumiRoom: Peripheral Projected Illusions for Interactive Experiences |url=http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/illumiroom/IllumiRoom_CHI2013_BJones.pdf |accessdate=29 April 2013}}</ref> The researchers noted in their IllumiRoom paper for the [[Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems|CHI 2013]] that the access to Red Eclipse's source code made a ''"rich, interactive experience"'' possible.<ref name="MSresearch_CHI2013">[http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/illumiroom/IllumiRoom_CHI2013_BJones.pdf IllumiRoom_CHI2013] by [[Microsoft Research]] ''"The majority of the illusions were paired with an open-source first-person shooter (Red  Eclipse). This created a rich, interactive experience, enabled by access to source code."'' (accessed May 2016)</ref>

== See also ==
{{Portal|Free software|Video games}}
* ''[[Cube 2: Sauerbraten]]''
* [[First-person shooter]]
* [[List of free first-person shooters]]

==References==
{{Reflist|30em|refs=
<ref name=PCGamer>{{cite web |url=http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/03/31/marchs-best-free-pc-games/ |title=March's best free PC games |author=Lewis Denby |date=March 31, 2011 |work=pcgamer.com |publisher =[[PC Gamer]] |accessdate=Nov 28, 2011}}</ref>

<ref name=MikeSchramm>{{cite web |url=http://www.joystiq.com/2011/03/18/free-open-source-fps-red-eclipse-hits-version-1-0/ |title=Free, open source FPS 'Red Eclipse' hits version 1.0 |author=Mike Schramm |date=March 18, 2011 |work=joystiq.com |publisher=[[Joystiq]] |accessdate=April 17, 2011 |quote=''Red Eclipse is a full-featured, Quake 3 Arena-style first person shooter with [...] some nice touches, including a wallrunning system, lots of bright colors exploding around and what looks like pretty good ragdoll physics.''}}</ref>

<ref name=geeky>{{cite web |url=http://www.geeky-gadgets.com/red-eclipse-version-1-0-open-source-fps-game-released-18-03-2011/ |title=Red Eclipse Version 1.0 Open Source FPS Game Released (video) |author=Julian Horsey |date=March 18, 2011 |work=geeky-gadgets.com |publisher=[[Geeky Gadgets]] |accessdate=April 17, 2011}}</ref>

<ref name=indiegamereviewer>{{cite web |url=http://www.indiegamereviewer.com/red-eclipse-an-open-source-fast-paced-classic-shooter/ |title=Red Eclipse - An open source fast-paced classic shooter |author=Michael Brune |date=January 24, 2012 |work=indiegamereviewer.com |publisher=[[Indie Game Reviewer]] |accessdate=January 26, 2012}}</ref>

<ref name="reweapons">{{cite web |url=http://redeclipse.net/wiki/Weapons |title=Weapons - Red Eclipse Wiki |accessdate=July 3, 2015}}</ref>

<ref name=redeclipse_license>{{cite web |url=http://redeclipse.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/redeclipse/license.txt?view=markup |title=Red Eclipse license |author=Red Eclipse Team |date=January 24, 2012 |work=[[sourceforge.net]] |publisher=[[Red Eclipse Team]] |accessdate=January 26, 2012}}</ref>

<ref name=QuintonComparison>{{cite web |url=http://forum.freegamedev.net/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=1955&p=19659#p19659|title=Re: Xonotic vs Red Eclipse|last1=Reeves|first1=Quinton|date=2011-09-09|website=FreeGameDev Forum|accessdate=2014-03-23}}</ref>
}}

== External links ==
* {{official website}}
* [http://strlen.com/cube/ Official site of the Cube engines]
* [http://redflare.ofthings.net/ The Red Eclipse gaming monitor]
*[http://www.instructables.com/id/Red-Eclipse-Weaponry-Development/ Red Eclipse: Weaponry Development]

[[Category:2011 video games]]
[[Category:First-person shooters]]
[[Category:Open-source shooter video games]]
[[Category:Free software programmed in C++]]
[[Category:Linux games]]
[[Category:OS X games]]
[[Category:First-person shooter multiplayer online games]]
[[Category:Portable software]]
[[Category:Windows games]]
[[Category:Creative Commons-licensed video games]]
[[Category:Parkour video games]]
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Re: INFO: Red Eclipse Wikipedia Article Deletion Review

Postby ShaneRoach » 13 Jun 2016 13:44

That's cool you were able to snatch the code back up by keeping an eye on it like that.
They're bugs, Wyatt. All that smart talk about live and let live. There ain't no live and let live with bugs.
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