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Red Eclipse • View topic - Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Red Eclipse's Map Direction

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Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby molexted » 03 Jul 2017 05:01

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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby SniperGoth » 03 Jul 2017 12:35

Personally i don't see a problem with the art direction of the current maps.
Variety in themes is good.
But if i were to set something for it, would be for a more alien-looking art in general, and that includes the weapons, as the player model is quite promethean-ish (Halo 4 anyone?) looking (screens), even though i know it would be hard as heck to achieve that look.
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby qreeves » 05 Jul 2017 07:31

Yeah, there's no real set theme, the idea is that it all happens in a variety of environments for a reason (because that's more interesting than a bunch of same-y looking maps). I'm actually disappointed that maps with varying levels of friction, gravity, etc. didn't take off more than it did, but it seems people prefer physics to be predictable.

Sure, some maps could be improved aesthetically speaking, but in general I've always favoured maps that play well. You could have the prettiest map in the world and it could be a real dud to play on, and quite often that is exactly the case with some of the map submissions. Flow through a level is important, and people would settle for blank coloured textures if it meant the game played well. Look at "Dutility", it was a favourite before the retexture because it had a very straight-up flow that suited certain situations very well.
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby Alxa » 07 Jul 2017 16:03

In my opinion, as long as all maps have a somewhat "technological" look, i'm fine with environment variety.
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby molexted » 23 Jul 2017 13:48

Of course layout is more important, and I'm not disputing that. What I want to know as a mapmaker for Red Eclipse is where Red Eclipse intends to go as far as theme. Theme is completely independent of layout: having a certain theme does not change that map's layout. Red Eclipse maps need to have something that identifies them as RE maps, even if the environments are different. The official maps have no coherency; nothing that makes you think they're a finished product as a whole: would a random stranger guess that ares and cutec are from the same game?

There needs to be set some official guidelines of what Red Eclipse maps should look like, even if they only extend to styling or minor aesthetic details. Once given guidelines on what to do, it becomes much easier for mappers to build a map that fits into a coherent whole rather than trying to create an aesthetic from scratch. The official maps, most of which are "futuristic" of some sort, vary wildly on their interpretation of what a Red Eclipse map should look like: there are the brick+RGB maps (ghost, deli, darkness, bloodlust), there are the very busy metalic maps (decomposition, vorticity), and there are the clean-lined, strip lighted maps like cutec, futuresport, and tower. Additionally, there are many maps that don't really fit into a futuristic theme well at all, like castle, stone, ares, abuse, error, and tonatiuh.

If Red Eclipse wants to have an identity, one that presents the game as a coherent and professional game, an official theme is necessary. I am willing to retexture maps in order to achieve this goal, but it is pointless if the community can't agree on what kind of texturing RE should have. Personally, I think maps should be themed somewhat like cutec, but I don't want to waste my time texturing maps into something other than what people want.

It is my firm belief that without sweeping changes to the way maps are designed and presented, this game will never have the user appeal it requires to sustain itself amidst its competition. Games like Xonotic have an established and coherent theme: the whole game comes as a complete package, and as a result, appeals to more people and gets more developer attention. To gain more support, Red Eclipse must do the same in order to attract more people. It is not adequate to appeal to players who already are established members of the community at the expense of looking forward and making a professional and complete game. This may have to include painful cutdowns of maps despite their current popularity in the game, maps that simply don't fit in to a coherent vision of what the Red Eclipse project is about.
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby LoxForever » 23 Jul 2017 23:05

The most important things in a game are the gameplay and a huge variety of maps with different themes. Nobody knows if a map will be successful or not but if there are many different maps the chances to keep an user for a long time increases. ;-)
The real fun and the real difficulty is to adapt to different environments, this is a rule of the nature and what keeps a challenge "interesting". :-)
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby molexted » 24 Jul 2017 00:45

What makes games, software, or any project great is not in the number of features possessed nor the quantity of work produced but the coherency of the work. Coherency is the single most important part of any project: adopting feature after feature on their merits standing alone without considering their merits when considered as part of a whole leads to a widespread lack of consistency. New players seeing Red Eclipse for the first time are apt to see the collection of Red Eclipse maps included in the game as a large pile of low-effort or even copied junk, since there is no overarching theme which connects the maps as being the product of a deliberate and concerted effort that would be expected of a serious game project.

If Red Eclipse wants to attract serious attention, it needs to show that it is serious about creating the game that the logo and website theme indicate, not just a random collection of maps that play well. Having good gameplay is of no use in attracting a larger community unless the first impression shown to the user exudes quality.

People who download Red Eclipse expect a game filled with space age maps, and doing anything other than that is going to make people feel cheated because they didn't get what they wanted; people who actually wanted 17th century brick maps aren't going to look at the Red Eclipse webpage and want to download the game anyway.

Theme and environment are not the same; maps with the same theme can be located in different environments while being characteristically similar. Limiting maps by theme does not reduce creative output, and generally, does the opposite, as can be seen by the creativity and cleverness with which, for example, coders are able to make programs with very significant physical or artificial limitations.

I am willing to devote time and effort in order to move this game forward, but if Red Eclipse does not want to move forward and become a relevant video game, then it is pointless for me to waste my time on something people don't want. I have better things to do with my time than fight a game which does not want to embrace what is required to make the game relevant to people other than those already in the community.
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby LoxForever » 24 Jul 2017 10:29

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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby molexted » 24 Jul 2017 12:51

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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby SniperGoth » 24 Jul 2017 14:00

Well, one of RE's inspirations, the Unreal Tournament series, has maps of ALL types, and i don't really see people complainning because of it.
Brick maps, temple maps, space maps, hi-tech facilities, castles, submarines.
But if you are really planning to padronize the theme of RE's maps, PLEASE, don't pull an Unreal tournament 3 on us, as it was terrible to see only one type of themed maps all the time (see screenshot 4 and 5), and it's one of the reasons it's not remembered as much as the other entries.
I like some variety on things.
The problem on the games maps currently for me is the lack of colors, contrast.
If it had more of it, it would be pretty.
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby acerspyro » 24 Jul 2017 14:54

*screams internally*
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby molexted » 24 Jul 2017 16:12

All of the maps included have at least some similarities, some small thing that reminds the player that they're in a futuristic map, much like how Ghost has a futuristic theme within a non-modern environment. That's all I want: something, even if subtle, that reminds people that the map belongs with the rest. Too many of Red Eclipse's maps are a. ugly and b. totally unconnected with the Red Eclipse theme. Some maps that come to mind as requiring attention are Ares, Stone, Castle, and Abuse.

If people really want to keep very old themed maps as they are, I would suggest at least providing a (flimsy) justification for why the player is on them, such as a spaceship or retrofitted modern lighting or some other connection to modernity.

Additionally, I would like to stress how important it is to cut out ugly maps. Including ugly maps are a problem because they lower the collective aesthetic quality of Red Eclipse as a whole, and people who see them are less apt to continue playing them. Some maps that I would personally remove are Deathtrap, Deadsimple, Decay, Keystone 2k, Spacetech, and Stone. Unlike maps for other games, most Red Eclipse maps have no story, no ambience, and no life to them (some noteworthy exceptions are LuckyStrike's Deli, Ubik, and Ghost). While I personally don't care much about the ambience of a map, the vast majority of players do (especially ones who are good at art, which we can certainly use more of) and should be a market we're actively seeking to participate in.

Above everything else, I want to be able to improve the quality of Red Eclipse's maps in order to better them. It's disheartening to continue mapping for Red Eclipse when the community is so opposed to change and is so opposed to make any changes to increase its popularity despite the very small community it has.
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby LoxForever » 24 Jul 2017 18:23

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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby acerspyro » 24 Jul 2017 23:33

*screams internally*
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby molexted » 25 Jul 2017 02:41

I design my maps for 50 fps max settings on an Intel HD 3000 from 2011. The fact that I have to even do indicates that a. my laptop has a HD 3000, and b. Red Eclipse is way behind the curve. Living on the trailing edge is not what I want to do as a mapmaker. A 6 year old basement level chip absolutely should not be all it takes to run a modern video game project at maxed out settings.

It's also incredibly silly to say the lesser maps can't grow in detail when maps like Ghost and Deli already use in excess of 150 thousand vertices, which is as much as 20x the geometry count of some of the uglier maps. Nobody that I know of thinks Ghost nor Deli have lag problems, and both maps are nearly unequivocally considered the prettiest maps in the game.

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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby qreeves » 25 Jul 2017 11:11

I guess I should weigh in, things have been chaotic here at home and I haven't had the time to fully read this thread until now.

I think everyone knows by now that we don't get a lot of contributors, let alone ones with enough talent to take over a lead role on the project. We haven't had a Lead Designer since Jojo left the community many years ago, at the time he actually help set up a very consistent look and feel because he worked on most of the maps and designed the old HUD elements we used. Over the years we've had to take whatever we can get, which means the job is usually mine to do (and I'm not good with art). It is hard to establish guidelines when the only way to move forward is to take what you can get from the few volunteers that do offer their help with making new content.

When it comes to things like textures, the available set of those has grown over the years and initially we didn't even have the texture sets (trak5/6) used in maps like "Cutec". Also, I really want to be clear here, while I support the prospect of having someone make everything more consistent, please don't make everything use the "trak" texture sets, they are used by a LOT of other games and we'd end up looking too similar to those projects. I do want us to be unique but focused, and I have never been one to keep things the way they are because others don't like change (how many times now have I done something and pissed off a part of the community in the process?).

So molexted, you talk about how you want to do this but don't want to waste your effort if people can't agree, are you up to the task and responsibility of adopting a project lead role? You'll need to run designs by me first, but the position is there and open. Same goes for the design of the new HUD, just needs someone to take over the art and work with me on it. If you need my input, we can do threads here on the forum or you can highlight me on IRC and I will get to it when I'm able to.
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby acerspyro » 25 Jul 2017 11:31

*screams internally*
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby LoxForever » 25 Jul 2017 16:02

Check these maps:
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby acerspyro » 25 Jul 2017 18:30

If you want a game that looks like shit and runs great on pentium II's, check out AssaultCube.
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby ImQ009 » 25 Jul 2017 18:36

Arguably having better graphics could grant us a bigger playerbase in the first place, most likely making up for the loss of the people who wouldn't be able to run the game.
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby SniperGoth » 25 Jul 2017 20:00

There's no reason for us to not try to do our best on the engine, as we are after all in 2017, and most PC players have a setup that plays RE and every other game well.
Also, if someday we do make the game go onto Tess, personally i don't believe there would be much performance loss, as it's quite stable these days.
The only thing on Tess itself that would give trouble is the volumetrics, but aside from that, even the water shaders have almost no performance loss, compared to RE and Sauer's.

I know, i know, /offtopic here, doesn't have to do anything with the map direction (at least partially), but i found that important to say.
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby acerspyro » 25 Jul 2017 20:16

*screams internally*
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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby LoxForever » 26 Jul 2017 12:18

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Re: Red Eclipse's Map Direction

Postby qreeves » 27 Jul 2017 05:20

SniperGoth, acerspyro, and molexted have been working together recently in order to improve the consistency of the project as a whole, as such they will be running the next design team. Everyone please help them in their endeavours and try not to be too antagonistic about any changes. In order to improve we need to be forward thinking and focus on providing an incredible core experience.
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