Red Eclipse

by **Scatter** » 27 Aug 2016 22:33

We dont have off-top on forums, so i will have to write this here.I have noticed that since release 1.5 playerbase is constantly decreasing, it is harder and harder to find people to play with.I have been checking red-flare since past week in several different hours and i saw 2-5 players max(on 1.5.2 servers usually) :/.I dont know why is that happening.Im not complaining but really worried about the game.

by **SniperGoth** » 27 Aug 2016 23:35

I thought about this also some days ago. There's a definitive lack of people around here lately.
I wonder what happened.

by **shacknetisp** » 28 Aug 2016 01:04

I think it is a combination of multiple things, hopefully all temporary. 1.5.5 has/had several bugs, some 1.5.0-2 users' updaters don't work, school is starting.

by **Bluegamer45** » 28 Aug 2016 04:32

The game itself is amazing, I gotta agree with that... But I feel that there isn't much publicity for the game itself. If only we had a way to show how great it is to the general public, there might be action.

(I have no way to help out on that, sadly :cry:

)

by **qreeves** » 28 Aug 2016 05:31

Part of the problem is my absence of late, it happens every time I stop dedicating a bunch of time to the project. After over a decade of working on the project, my interest definitely waxes and wanes. As you can imagine working on the same thing for so long burns you out and I have to switch off for a while every now and then to "reboot". I had hoped restructuring the development process would help ease some of the issues created when I'm not around, but it doesn't seem like anyone who actually has the skills to contribute in the way that I do is willing to standard and direction set by the project leaders.

I suppose this is evidence enough that I am not a programmer or much of anything, just a guy who is really good at improvising; and it is that improvisational nature that seems to keep the project alive. I don't really have an opinion on code formatting and other compilation issues because I don't understand much of it in the first place, and for that reason I rely on the people who have been there with me from the beginning. Without them, there would be no game, as I would never have gotten this project off the ground in the first place. That is why I put them in a position of leadership, they know what they're doing and they've been doing it for a long time.

While I understand that people have strong opinions on certain topics, sometimes this results in them not contributing because their passion relating to the subject. All this does is makes me sad because it leaves me as the only person who can get things done. Can you see the irony here? A non-programmer and non-artist seems to be the only one who can coexist in this environment. I really, truly, try my hardest to keep the project progressing along, but I'm just one guy with absolutely no formal training in any of the subjects I have to improvise in here. Even so, sometimes I have to swallow my pride for the sake of the community and do what needs to be done, because that is what is important in the end. I wanted a friendly community surrounding a game that I love.

Indeed, it is also that time of year we see a lull after the northern summer break has ended. You might notice I try to focus my efforts during times when people are more available, which is why I try to develop during the northern summer break, and sometimes even my own summer break here in Australia. It can be really hard to coordinate with people at the best of times. I'm not sure if publicity will even help the issue, it's been discussed many times to no real conclusion. The sad fact is we are a small community produced game, and that is reflected in the quality of the end product. We struggle to produce high quality content and often have to make do with what we have. I estimate at least half of the textures used in UI and other displays was jury rigged by me and has never been replaced. I think we need to do a deep QA review of the content included in the game and either improve or remove that which is lacking. Maybe even make up a survey and try to encourage people (other than ourselves) to fill it out to help improve things.

Anyway, a lot of this posy is already a bit tl;dr and off-topic, so I'll close here. I just hope you can understand my point of view and accept my apologies for not being able to do everything that's needed all the time.

by **bonifarz** » 28 Aug 2016 07:49

Yes, we have few active players right now. And getting them split on two incompatible versions makes things worse. I think one of the reasons for that is the server hickup issue, so I hope once that's fixed, it will get a bit better again.

by **Alxa** » 28 Aug 2016 18:17

I agree, but i feel that the breaking point was during the release of 1.4 version. A lot of regulars left during that time. Which is fine, since nobody will play a game forever. I think the problem is that the game hasn't replenished the old playerbase with new players.

Although the problem Quin points out is real, i don't think that's the reason the playerbase had dwindled. Even if the project got stalled, the game is good as it is (as long as the the bugs are fixed). The truth is that there are hundreds of games out there competing for players and RE is sitting here in obscurity.

The game is great, and everytime i show RE to someone, they love it!, plus it's free and doesn't asks for a powerful machine, so even someone has a slow machine (the majority of people), they can play the game. So, as i mentioned it in the marketing thread i did some time ago; i think the problem is in the lack of videos showing how fun this game can be.

Most of us can't code, so making videos is the only way we have to help this game.

by **DonGeilo** » 28 Aug 2016 18:38

Interesting would be to know how people that play RE (yes, that is us) found it. Based on that information we could organize some proper marketing. I found the game here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comm ... esoftware/

Do you have any information about that Quin?

Social Media propably is the easiest and most efficient way to spread the game.

by **bonifarz** » 28 Aug 2016 20:14

by **FaTony** » 29 Aug 2016 02:38

by **qreeves** » 29 Aug 2016 03:41

FaTony: They're all valid opinions, but that is why the world is so diverse. There are a lot of projects out there, some may reflect your personal beliefs and others most certainly will not. I won't get into explaining every single decision that was made, as it would just result in another wall of text (and I'd be repeating myself anyway); sufficed to say, each one was made for a reason. Ever since I opened development I have tried my hardest to not label anyone with an opposing opinion, because you need the other side of the argument to make a good decision. Up until about 2-3 years ago, it was just a handful of friends working on something without much outside input (due to obscurity).

I will say this though, the Multiplayer Guidelines and associated governing is to ensure the game - as it is provided to the user - is as advertised and doesn't contain anything that could give them the wrong impression. We run the master server so people can connect to servers for our game, not what someone else thinks our game should be; this subverts the whole development process. We would much rather get the opportunity to review modifications and even merge them into the main branch if they are of value to the community, and even if it doesn't, there have been servers in the past which have passed the approval process (with ease) and be allowed to run on the master server.

This is where people confuse the source with software as a service. We provide the source code and associated content to you at no charge, you are free to study, modify, and redistribute your derivations, but the master server is a service provided by the project for the sole purpose of the project. It's not like we don't distribute the master server source either, you can create a whole new game if you want, with everything you ever wanted, you just can't use our name to promote your derivations, because well, that'd be taking advantage of our position and hard work for your own goals.

Already another wall of text, I'll stop now.

by **bonifarz** » 29 Aug 2016 06:59

by **FaTony** » 29 Aug 2016 09:10

by **qreeves** » 29 Aug 2016 09:27

by **bonifarz** » 29 Aug 2016 11:19

by **FaTony** » 29 Aug 2016 12:23

by **Scatter** » 29 Aug 2016 13:43

by **SniperGoth** » 29 Aug 2016 14:03

by **FaTony** » 30 Aug 2016 06:54

by **shacknetisp** » 30 Aug 2016 13:03

by **Scatter** » 30 Aug 2016 13:10

Getting back to the topic

I think the fastest way to advertise RedEclipse is Youtube.The problem is most of RE channels are small,therefore audience is limited.I will try to encourage bigger Indie/open Source youtubers to review Redeclipse.Hopefully this will help to increase our community,because despite fixable bugs the biggest problem is that nearly no one know about RedEclipse and how good and fast developing this game is.

by **bonifarz** » 30 Aug 2016 14:01

That would be great, scatter.
We have seen that getting mentioned by a youtuber (like vsauce) can bring a nice influx of players. I still hope the next time that happens, more folks will stay for a while.
Reviews will be useful in particular, also to get RE back on ... I did not want to name it earlier... wikipedia. Meanwhile, they've also removed RE again from the list of open source games, which actually seems a useful place to learn about the game >_<

by **SniperGoth** » 30 Aug 2016 23:33

by **qreeves** » 31 Aug 2016 09:47

by **ShaneRoach** » 02 Sep 2016 13:06

Odd.

When I meandered away a month or two ago I saw all these posts about videos, and one guy was even making videos. Sorry that did not pan out.

I'm not fully comprehending why folks who want to run the server differently don't just start their own server?

One thing you might not be figuring into your thoughts about why things are slow is people get caught up in games cyclically. I have been playing Dark Souls III compulsively lately. Therefore my absence. My little 3d project stands as it did two months ago - missing his ear. LOL

Hang in there guys. Find whatever it is you LIKE about the project and do it.

by **FaTony** » 03 Sep 2016 01:36

by **ShaneRoach** » 04 Sep 2016 20:14

by **bonifarz** » 04 Sep 2016 20:53

When you open the servers menu to select a game, you see a list of all game servers connected to the master server. You can also connect to other servers, but for that you'll need the connection information (ip).

I think modding Red Eclipse is not really an issue, and has nothing to do with this topic. Again, I guess we all agree that one of the main reasons for the currently low player count is some bug that causes server crashes mid-match. Thus quite a few players use an older, incompatible version.

Let's hope that's fixed soon and stable will actually be stable again :roll:

by **qreeves** » 05 Sep 2016 00:57

Crash Test Server running stable with GDB attached - quin.redeclipse.net:28801 - try to crash it so I can get backtraces!

by **FaTony** » 05 Sep 2016 06:34

by **ShaneRoach** » 08 Sep 2016 14:39

by **SniperGoth** » 08 Sep 2016 15:51

by **ShaneRoach** » 08 Sep 2016 16:48

I poked around for a good month or two. There were no easy answers. Porting to Blender turns out to be more trouble I think than help. Blender game engine has its own set of limitations that need to be addressed before RE could even be ported to it, making the port more work than updating RE's rendering unless I much miss my guess, and fixing RE's rendering would most likely be a Herculean task.

It's depressing to me because more than anything I just feel strongly that no AAA game company is ever going to make the game I want to play. So I am fucked. I can't program it all myself. Even if I were a kickass coder, these kinds of games take teams of dozens if not hundreds. Have you read the credits for modern AAA games? They take longer to roll than Hollywood blockbuster movies these days.

The only hope I had was a fanatical open source community, and it is clear that does not exist. I am amazed still though at the Blender community. It is the closest thing we have in Open Source to something that could take on this project. But it's still miles and miles away and no light at the end of that tunnel as far as I can see.

I don't want to wax overly dramatic. I really love Dark Souls III, and they seem as if they may be slowly meandering toward at least a decent PvP aspect in Dark Souls, but I have been waiting all my life basically for a first person action RPG set in a fantasy open world setting with decent crafting, mass combat, and strategic aspects and they STILL haven't made it. You'd have to combine Total War, city builders, and Assassin's Creed all into one game to make me happy.

Not keen on the whole being realistic thing myself I guess....

I really love the Assassin's Creed series too. I should probably go ahead and break down and get their latest game, but Dark Souls III is a looong game to beat for me, and even longer to learn PvP, so I feel like any other games for several months would just collect dust.

Sorry for meandering inane post. To sum up - graphics. Yes, please.

P.S. Shoehorning Blender's rendering engine into RE is not an option I suppose? That one just occurred to me. It's open source.......

by **shacknetisp** » 08 Sep 2016 18:05

by **yeatta** » 08 Sep 2016 22:44

oy y'all

I might be offtracking the topic but i'd like to post my opinion as a player on this.
I'd say I have two reasons to enjoy RE,
one for the MOBA itself wich could benefit greatly with mods and juicy graphics or even weirdier modes, likewise a more liberal aproach regarding the right of use of RE's code, models, etc.
The second one would be the competitive side such as the duel-hard-basic mode, one that benefits from centralization, and public stats, and clanVSclan events, and etc.

I don't mind RE getting "dead", i can just save the whole project on my HD and call scatter sometimes for a play or two. (shoutout to ma' boy!! \o/ )
The competitive flavour is harder to fade I suppose.

And I'll end this biased opinion by thanking the whole set of pairs of hands that furiously stroke this whole botched code to present us today with this piece of ingenious craftwork.
thanks

by **FaTony** » 09 Sep 2016 11:51

I don't care about graphics. To me even Doom 1 graphics are fine.

by **SniperGoth** » 09 Sep 2016 14:02

by **ShaneRoach** » 09 Sep 2016 14:28

by **FaTony** » 10 Sep 2016 12:51

Because it's all about gameplay for players and use-of-modding for content creators.

As a player, I really hate effects such as motion blur, bloom, other things that distract from gameplay.

As a modder, I like map editor and hate multiplayer guidelines.

Anyway, I've put all my maps on hold until 1.4.6 or whenever the bugs will be fixed and moved to modding Hedgewars.

by **Scatter** » 10 Sep 2016 17:37

by **restcoser** » 10 Sep 2016 19:53

That's just your opinion... I enjoy high settings, and the kick and prettyness that that gives, i also enjoy them as a mapper to toy around and use... RE not being that pretty is a reason i don't play it that much, even.(maybe)

But that is just my opinion.

by **qreeves** » 12 Sep 2016 09:08

I played RE in 4K with everything as high as I could crank it, and it still looked pretty bad. When we shift to Tesseract Engine, I think we'll be dumping a LOT of dated content because there'd be no point porting it. I'm in the process of building a new system which will accommodate development with TE for me. Nobody's interested in CE2 anymore really.

by **FaTony** » 12 Sep 2016 13:28

by **bonifarz** » 12 Sep 2016 13:41

by **FaTony** » 12 Sep 2016 17:59

by **SniperGoth** » 12 Sep 2016 19:22

by **Julius** » 13 Sep 2016 13:24

I think there are also two larger factors at play:
1. Arena FPS as a genre is in a general long decline, with the core player-based well into their late 20ties early 30ties now (much less free time, family commitments etc.) and little fresh blood.
2. Open-source games and/or hobbyist games/mods have a bit of a hard time right now and might never recover to the glory days of the early 2000s. I think there are three main reasons for that: The obvious is higher graphical quality demands that can not be reached by non-full time teams, but that is a more minor factor in my opinion. The bigger issue is that "free as in beer" doesn't bring players any more (as the market is saturated to an extreme amount with free or very cheap games), and open-source was sadly never a big pull-factor to begin with (and player base brings motivation for development and outside contributions). And even on relative fringe platforms like Linux, there are now plenty of professional cheap games to get via Steam. And last but not least, the online multi-player scene (where mods and open-source games have a natural strength in theory) has consolidated to a few major titles that pull in all players. This used to be much different, and even the major titles of the past were much more friendly to hobbyists tinkering with the game. --- to avoid misunderstandings, no I would mostly not follow FaTony's argument in regards to moddability of Red Eclipse, but the overall hobbyist game development scene is dying because of that (and because for a while many people thought indie games would be way to get rich quick and now a few years later all these nice 2D platformers are released in a totally overcrowded market).

by **Scatter** » 13 Sep 2016 15:44

Boni,a moment later you have left,server crashed during creating team phase.

by **ShaneRoach** » 13 Sep 2016 17:10

by **ShaneRoach** » 13 Sep 2016 17:15

by **LugariusRE** » 16 Sep 2016 21:45

I will help promote in the outside....

To be honest, i play not online, and since the 1.5 i dont play anymore.
We are updated, and the development is better than Xonotics

To help promote, make Videos and invite friends.

by **bonifarz** » 18 Sep 2016 07:01

While all the comments about promoting the game are valid and important, I think the point of this topic was that extremely low number of players online in RE 1.5.5. With the release of 1.5.6, we are getting back to the modest player base we used to have, probably because some players have been waiting for the release to get some bugs fixed.

by **dracovyrn** » 22 Sep 2016 06:33

It's sad to hear that you guys think the game is dying... though, if I may offer some insight, the large reason I think the game may seem to have less players is that version numbers between people are heavily fragmented. For example, I imagine a good number of RE's playerbase discovered RE through their search for Linux-supported games.

But, this also poses another problem. Linux distributions such as Ubuntu, Fedora, and Arch are all shipping completely different versions of RE, even within their own versions. Ubuntu 14.04 LTS is still shipping with RE version 1.4.5 and even their newest release, Ubuntu 16.04 LTS is only shipping with 1.5.1. At the time of speaking (though I may be wrong), I think Fedora 24 is only shipping 1.5.3.

As you can see, this poses quite a problem. A lot of people that install these different RE versions are completely segregated from each other, and there's no real way to update all versions to the most current version for those distributions. I found a workaround by installing getdeb and playdeb to always have the most current version, but I don't think most people know how to do that.

As far as mods go; while mods are nice in most contexts, I don't think it's really accurate to say mods are the only thing that keeps a game thriving, though sometimes they can help. In reality, mods are a sub-context for a larger picture, which is replayability.

Many games that thrive on mods do so for a few reasons. Most of the time, it's a lack of replayability. This isn't to say that games like HL, CS, and TF2 are bad games by themselves, but eventually, most regular players will start to outsource to more options. To me, it was the same thing with Minecraft. Vanilla Minecraft is great, there's nothing wrong with it. However, after playing it for about a year or so, I realized that every time I started a new game, it was exact same old routine over and over and over and over again, and it started to bother me. So, I downloaded Technic Launcher and discovered the Hexxit mod. I played it with people online, learned how to create things and items with the new mods, and fought many new players and creatures in new and exciting ways. Although I don't like it, Microsoft bought out Minecraft. But ever since then, they have released some really cool updates that were very groundbreaking compared to some of the 'major' updates that were released back when it was just Notch and Mojang. In spite of my feelings for MS, I can't say that there hasn't been some refreshing direction from them in that aspect.

At some point, I think it's just a realization that without major changes or new implementations, stagnation will occur. In general, this is a truth for more than just game design. But I digress...

Maybe RE needs a new direction or goal? I'm personally fine with RE as it is, and have always enjoyed it as it is compared to other arena-shooters, though I have always had some ideas that I would really like to see implemented. I've just never personally brought them up because I feel it would never be considered.

And just to put this out there, I don't personally play online. Just with bots and family, locally. I've never been very big on online multiplayer, so I was thinking that this may be another reason that RE seems to be 'dying'.

by **FaTony** » 22 Sep 2016 09:14

Yes, maintaining an up to date repo would be great. Lack of mods - multiplayer guidelines.

by **bonifarz** » 22 Sep 2016 10:06

by **freezurbern** » 22 Sep 2016 12:59

by **dracovyrn** » 25 Sep 2016 07:52

So, I had thought. Since people apparently don't know about Red Eclipse, I had another idea. Has Steam ever been considered as a viable option? I imagine the game could be considered for a greenlight. Plus, the issue of fragmented versions on Linux would be solved, as all people would need to run the most up-to-date version of the game would be to have the Steam Client. Steam Workshop would also be handy, as anyone that makes extra maps could just upload them all in one place.

I know this seems a bit far fetched, but the more I think about it, the more it makes complete sense. (Also, it would mean I could play RE on Solus, something I've been waiting for for quite a while.

)

by **bonifarz** » 25 Sep 2016 09:24

by **shacknetisp** » 25 Sep 2016 15:10

by **freezurbern** » 25 Sep 2016 15:22

by **FaTony** » 26 Sep 2016 04:39

I don't think thing like this would fly.

by **qreeves** » 26 Sep 2016 07:16

In general a lot of distributions will frown on letting the package itself download and install other files, which is why we recommend people just use our package if they want the latest version. The issue of lagging distro channels isn't a new thing, all we can do is hope to attract enough people to maintain all those various pathways, because we can't really do it ourselves. PlayDeb is always a good choice if you want up to date games. Also, I haven't even written the updater properly yet, we're still basically using my test case, there's tons of room for improvement.

by **FaTony** » 26 Sep 2016 08:30

by **qreeves** » 26 Sep 2016 14:39

by **bonifarz** » 26 Sep 2016 15:58

For now, I think it would be more useful if we could tell the server owners and players who still stick with 1.5.2 that our current version is stable. I know, there's a flashing info about a new version out, but I guess some guys have not realized yet that this is the version where the bugs are fixed that they did not like.

by **apo** » 01 Oct 2016 21:19

Hi all,

Bonifarz brought my attention to this thread. I'm a Debian developer and I also host the Einherjer Europe server for Red Eclipse.

I don't think the game is dying but here are some thoughts about how the Red Eclipse community could improve their "visibility" towards end users and how
Linux distributions work.

Two years ago I was the main driver to get Red Eclipse into Debian main. Before that it was part of Debian's contrib and even non-free distributions but I thought that wasn't right and the game deserved a place in Debian proper due to its use of completely free code and content which sets it apart from other fps games. Since then the popularity of the game steadily increased and even doubled in two years. https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=redeclipse

People always worry about the hundreds of Linux distributions and how they should promote their games. Actually it's quite simple. Get your game into Debian and Fedora and you will reach 90% and more of all Linux users. Debian based distributions like Ubuntu just copy the latest packages from Debian unstable. Linux Mint in turn copies the packages from Ubuntu. You will almost never see a major divergence from Debian especially when we talk about games.

Debian:
https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/redeclipse
https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/redeclipse-data

Fedora:
http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/cgit/rpms/redeclipse.git/

The tricky part is keeping the game up-to-date in these distributions. As you can see the same guy packaged Red Eclipse for Debian and Fedora in the past but he has been busy for a while and so the distribution packages are lagging behind. I decided to help out for Debian and the package is now up-to-date again but since I maintain a few hundred packages a year though, I would prefer if someone else got involved in packaging Red Eclipse for Debian. It's not really hard but you have to spent a few hours when a new release comes out. Getting the package into Debian isn't that complicated anymore since it is team-maintained and you just need to ask for "sponsorship" on the team mailing list.

Another point is timing and release cycles. Although the game is up-to-date in Debian again now, the version in Ubuntu is still at 1.5.1. Ubuntu is in a so-called development freeze and at a certain point in time, automatic package migration from Debian is disabled and then they only cherry-pick new features and updates. If you want to get a certain release into Ubuntu, it should be released at least a month before they do their feature freeze. For instance a timeline for Ubuntu 16.10 can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YakketyYak/ReleaseSchedule. So that means no new version of Red Eclipse in Ubuntu proper until April 2017.

There are usually two easy ways to get around these release cycle limitations. Someone should get involved in providing backports and/or PPAs.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports
https://backports.debian.org/
https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA

Creating a PPA is really easy. Just grab the official sources from Debian unstable and upload a source-only version to your PPA. The auto-builders will take care of the rest.

In fact rebuilding a Debian package on another Debian based system is trivial.

1. Install all necessary build-tools with
apt-get install build-essential

2. Download the latest sources from Debian unstable
dget -x http://http.debian.net/debian/pool/main ... .5.6-1.dsc
dget -x http://http.debian.net/debian/pool/main ... .5.6-1.dsc

3. Download the necessary build-dependencies
apt-get build-dep redeclipse

4. Build the package
cd redeclipse* && debuild -us -uc

That's it.

So in a nutshell.

1. Get involved in packaging the game for Debian and Fedora.
2. Provide latest releases via PPAs and/or backports.
3. Tell people how they can easily compile the game themselves

Of course you can still provide a standalone version of Red Eclipse with your own custom install mechanism etc. but it is usually far less time consuming to prepare Linux packages IMO.

Last but not least, please consider to extend the compatibility between different versions. In my opinion network compatibility should not break between minor releases as 1.5.5 -> 1.5.6 but only between major versions like 1.4 and 1.5. Players with an older client like 1.5.2 should be able to play on a server with version 1.5.6. This would definitely increase the available player pool. At the moment this isn't the case and I think this is one of the main reasons why only a few players are on the servers right now.

Cheers

by **bonifarz** » 15 Oct 2016 11:23

Mhm, two weeks have passed since apo's comment, and there was absolutely no response so far. Isn't this a good point how the community could help?

by **Jfault** » 15 Oct 2016 12:40

ATM I could help packaging stuff but as the (middle/high!) school year really gets started I'll have less time...

That being said you don't need to do the stuff THAT often

EDIT: Debian and *buntu packaging that is

by **qreeves** » 16 Oct 2016 03:33

I've considered methods of maintaining protocol backward compatibility in the past, though it is generally quite hard when the reason for them is that the underlying gameplay has changed in some way that actually requires the extra parameter here or there and that the client/server both understand what that means. I already support four separate install packages for three different operating systems by myself, so the only way to get it done officially would be to somehow integrate the package generation into my build pipeline somewhere for whatever OS needs packaging.

I have a Windows 10 desktop, a MacOS Mac Mini, and a Ubuntu Linux 16.04 server. Our hosted by SemaphoreCI, uses Ubuntu Linux 14.04, which does autobuilds for Windows and Linux for each branch, as well as provides the deployment for building Windows, Linux, and MacOS packages. The autobuild script can be found and the deployment script can be found . I still currently build for MacOS by hand, but I use to clean, build, and install (move binary to "./bin/redeclipse.app/Contents/MacOS/redeclipse_universal") before using another script to push it to the web server.

At the very least, we might be able to set up our own PPA by hooking into this?

by **Jeppson** » 20 Jul 2017 19:17

by **bonifarz** » 23 Jul 2017 06:56