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Red Eclipse • View topic - trial energy and spectator toggle

trial energy and spectator toggle

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trial energy and spectator toggle

Postby bonifarz » 03 Mar 2014 13:43

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Re: trial energy and spectator toggle

Postby radiant » 03 Mar 2014 18:04

Of course, there are some stages where even if this was eradicated somehow, the best move would still be to intentionally die (such as by jumping into nearby lava) to achieve the same result. Switching to spectate is simply the fastest way of invoking this intentional death mechanic, which works on any checkpoint at all as long as you know where its boundary is. Effectively, in time-trial mode it acts as a second flavor of suicide key: "die and go back to last checkpoint" vs. "die and go back to start".

(In fact, on purge I used to try to use three spectate-switches instead of four: at the second checkpoint, my goal is simply to fling into that thin row of derez material below the platform. In that video, I saw that I was probably aimed too high for it and reached for the spectate button to avoid losing too much time.)

The idea I've had to "fix" this, insofar as it needs fixing at all, is simply to crowd out the use cases where these unconventional moves might have been profitable. If dying from a checkpoint or nearby will cause a restart at that checkpoint with a full impulse meter, why not simply have the checkpoint give an automatic impulse refresh as soon as it's triggered? The checkpoints themselves could receive a light-colored particle effect (by default, without having to go back and edit every single map) to symbolize this "energy recharge" power, and that would actually allow players to see where the checkpoints are, so they have a concrete idea of where to go without having to study the map from within edit mode. It'll also discourage ridiculous maps with 100 checkpoints or whatnot, since it won't slow players down any more to refuel between one section and the next.

An issue that's more important than this is the fact that some checkpoints are just so huge that spectate-and-back (or another die-and-back) is good for more than energy refill: the trip from the edge of the checkpoint to the center would take more than the half-second delay involved in respawning. For example, the first checkpoint in purge has a radius of 192 (24 meters), so if you know where the top is located, you can pull the trigger right there and actually get a shortcut down to the platform unless you're traveling at more than 48 m/s. Even more egregious is the fourth checkpoint, which only has radius 107 but is positioned such that its edge reaches through walls. In that old video, I used it to skip a hurdle and a medium-sized falling section, but upon closer examination, it can be used to skip even more (see attachment).

Also, steelrat's fourth checkpoint is just barely large enough that pieces of it stick out beyond the grates, which themselves are there to block off a remnant of its former life as capinox. By spectating from right up against the corner, , skipping the entire air duct section. I suspect things like these are partly due to, again, players having no way to determine where exactly the checkpoints are in-game, so map designers get overeager and make them large enough to encompass any possible line the player could take, never mind that they may just open up some unintentional new lines. Visible checkpoints would allow them to be shrunk down to a more reasonable size where they don't poke through walls they're not supposed to, without evoking reactions of "Hey, I got that far, why didn't I respawn in place like everyone else does?" simply because they swerved out of the way of an invisible target.
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Re: trial energy and spectator toggle

Postby FaTony » 05 Mar 2014 02:47

I think this should be left as a pro feature.
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Re: trial energy and spectator toggle

Postby qreeves » 05 Mar 2014 02:51

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Re: trial energy and spectator toggle

Postby FaTony » 05 Mar 2014 05:23

Well there are usually a class of unintended engine stuff like bunnyhopping in Quake, quickswitching in CS, etc, which are not easy to perform but give advantage to people who master them. I think quick joining spectator and back is such feature.
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Re: trial energy and spectator toggle

Postby radiant » 05 Mar 2014 05:50

In this case it's not even difficult to perform: you just hit one button, then you get a full half-second window to hit the next and the result is identical throughout that window: no time lost. The only other piece it takes to achieve that result is the realization that "switch to spectate" is the closest facsimile the game has for "suicide without losing checkpoints", which is a feature that (at least in time trial) makes some sense to have, but if it exists, it should exist in a form that's readily presentable to any player, and recognizable for what it is.

RE's movement system already has plenty of tricks that take some getting used to, particularly when it comes to the finicky timings surrounding the impulse launch and getting best results out of that. Additionally, several stages offer lines that new players wouldn't dare attempt, and might not even imagine to be possible, perhaps culminating in the "mega gap jump" at the start of amplification. In contrast, spectate-refill and die-refill both seem more like menu navigation tools than anything, and that's not really a thing that needs to lend itself to a "curve of mastery" more so than the rest of the game.
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Re: trial energy and spectator toggle

Postby bonifarz » 05 Mar 2014 09:50

First of all, I wanted to keep the description concise, feeling somewhat responsible for the consequences of my feature request ;)

Thanks for the detailed feedback, radiant. Of course, checkpoint shortcuts are closely related, although that is rather an issue of map design. And yes, intentional death on checkpts should be discussed here, too. Both can be prevented with a (slightly!) longer trialdelay, but that may be annoying when unintentional death happens often :roll:
Another simple var change that might be tested is a larger impulseregencrouch, lowering waiting times when out of energy so that a respawn is not advantageous. Not a good solution, though.

An energy refill and some particle effects on checkpoints? MIght be pretty nice, but as with the question to imply checkpoint announcer sounds, separate entities are probably preferred - i don't know. A little off topic, but I still wonder: The actual shape of the checkpoints is still cubic and not spherical, right?

Pro feature? I agree with radiant here. He knows well what mastering the move system means :D - Death on a checkpoint might be left as such, but I don't like that much either.
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Re: trial energy and spectator toggle

Postby radiant » 17 Mar 2014 05:36

So how about this: have the checkpoints restore energy (the code is already there for this; it's how checkpoints tagged as "last" work) but allow time trial to take on a GSP1, named something like "strict", in which they don't. You could also take the step of reverting Trac ticket 610 for that mode, so a spectate-switch will be indistinguishable from suicide in that it goes all the way back to start, or perhaps even take the drastic step of disabling the respawn checkpoints entirely in strict mode, so the whole run has to be done start to finish at once. Just bear in mind that there are some custom maps that would play extremely poorly under that interpretation.

If the oversized checkpoints are going to be shrunken across the board (probably to radius 48 or less) and made visible with particles to compensate, they should remain visible in strict if they're going to function at all in that mode, simply because it's otherwise too easy to accidentally dodge them entirely in some wide hallways without getting credited for a tag; other than that, it would serve as a similar mutator to what we have now. Death resets could still be a thing, depending on whether there was a kill plane close enough to be faster than crouching to full energy, but strict really wants to act as a test of long-term budgeting when planning a route. If touching a checkpoint refuels energy, then suddenly it becomes ideal to cram as many boosts as you can possibly fit between each checkpoint, because tagging one with 50% left is rather wasteful if you could go down to 5% and build up more speed beforehand instead. Keeping control under that style of play might stand out to some; then again, so might which is carefully budgeted to avoid having to stop or crouch for any reason (except the auto-duck under that one tube), getting by on only the natural rate of replenishment.

Alternatively, current behavior could be the default and "rejuvenating checkpoints" could be the GSP, in which case it would be named something like "turbo". Either way, both styles could be worth having.
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Re: trial energy and spectator toggle

Postby gynter » 17 Mar 2014 08:03

I think that energymeter should be preserverd when going to spec and back, eg no refill like now (a variable for that would suffice).

IMHO whole time trial loses it's point if checkpoints restore the energy. Time trial is all about saving the energy and using it correctly while trying to stay alive as much as possible. But I agree that the checkpoints should be marked somehow and should be smaller.
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Re: trial energy and spectator toggle

Postby subraizada3 » 17 Mar 2014 11:53

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Re: trial energy and spectator toggle

Postby bonifarz » 08 Sep 2014 15:19

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Re: trial energy and spectator toggle

Postby shirepirate » 08 Sep 2014 20:21

a delay upon death or entering spectator dynamically proportional to the amount of time it would take for impulse to refill (at normal speed, without crouching) seems like it would fix all issues. it would no longer be beneficial to die on purpose or enter spectator on purpose, but the spawn delay wouldn't be ridiculously long either.

also as someone who enjoys time trial a great deal, i'd like to see the marathon mutator as the new default time trial mode, and fastest overall time mode used as a mutator. i picture less suicide spam and hanging around waiting for someone to best your time this way, you are encouraged to play the entire match and it balances things out a little better among all players. i also picture much more interesting team time trial gameplay this way, whereas currently team time trial is sort of awkward and very rarely played.
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Re: trial energy and spectator toggle

Postby radiant » 08 Sep 2014 21:56

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Re: trial energy and spectator toggle

Postby Iceflower » 19 Oct 2014 20:02

I know my English is cruel. :$
When I talk rubbish correct me.
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Re: trial energy and spectator toggle

Postby qreeves » 26 Oct 2014 11:40

and take steps toward making "endurance" the pro version of time-trial, and making the default game a bit easier.
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Re: trial energy and spectator toggle

Postby bonifarz » 26 Oct 2014 12:08

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