Backported variable questions

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Backported variable questions

Postby Bobbo » 18 Aug 2014 17:54

I've been away on camp and now I'm back to find post r6550 variables have been backported, I have some questions about some changes:

Why has smghitpush1 been multiplied by 10 and smghitpush2 been doubled?

Why has rifledamage2 been reduced by a third?

Why has movespeed been increased to 125?
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby qreeves » 19 Aug 2014 02:27

To be honest, some of these variables shouldn't have been back ported. There is a reason r6550 breaks protocol.

1) SVN has no impact stun for many weapons now, so the hit push was restored to pre-stun values to counteract the extra player velocity retained. SMG is a medium range defense weapon for pushing players back, it is modeled after the Heavy's chain gun in TF2. See r6602.

2) It has been reduced to 100 so that only a non-buffed headshot will instant kill a non-buffed player. This brings the skill required to use the rifle in line with the amount of damage it does, and part of a major revision of the oft-abused rifle2. It should be hard to kill someone on the other side of the map.

3) SVN changed the way running works. Whether you are running or not now depends on your velocity, you build up speed and then you're able to transition into a state where you start moving faster. This system is actually modelled on Sonic the Hedgehog, it is slightly more realistic and natural feeling. I increased the base movement speed and decreased the multiplier for running speed so that it had less impact on the player's ability to move from a standing position. Basically I tested it until it felt right compared to r6550, so hopefully most people won't notice. The back port should probably set movepacing to 1.3 as the var was renamed moverun. See r6569 and r6618.
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby Bobbo » 19 Aug 2014 09:28

qreeves wrote:1) SVN has no impact stun for many weapons now, so the hit push was restored to pre-stun values to counteract the extra player velocity retained. SMG is a medium range defense weapon for pushing players back, it is modeled after the Heavy's chain gun in TF2. See r6602.

Well, that's kinda cool to hear, but hitpush 50 every 90ms is loads, it probably wants toning down a bit.

2) It has been reduced to 100 so that only a non-buffed headshot will instant kill a non-buffed player. This brings the skill required to use the rifle in line with the amount of damage it does, and part of a major revision of the oft-abused rifle2. It should be hard to kill someone on the other side of the map.

Okay, ignoring the fact that this now makes non-buffed players with left over buff (see: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=266), would it be reasonable to ask that rifletorsodamage2 be increased to 0.6 as well as riflelegdamage2 be increased to 0.3 so it done the same damage on those parts as in 1.4?

3) SVN changed the way running works. Whether you are running or not now depends on your velocity, you build up speed and then you're able to transition into a state where you start moving faster. This system is actually modelled on Sonic the Hedgehog, it is slightly more realistic and natural feeling. I increased the base movement speed and decreased the multiplier for running speed so that it had less impact on the player's ability to move from a standing position. Basically I tested it until it felt right compared to r6550, so hopefully most people won't notice. The back port should probably set movepacing to 1.3 as the var was renamed moverun. See r6569 and r6618.

Okay, the faster running is very noticeable and feels odd. It's opening up a whole new world of parkour stuff I probably shouldn't be able to do. My other thought was it breaking time trial maps and maybe normal maps (eg, jumping to places where you can normally due to extra velocity).
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby qreeves » 19 Aug 2014 09:34

Bobbo wrote:Okay, the faster running is very noticeable and feels odd. It's opening up a whole new world of parkour stuff I probably shouldn't be able to do. My other thought was it breaking time trial maps and maybe normal maps (eg, jumping to places where you can normally due to extra velocity).

With [movespeed 125; movepacing 1.3] (162.5) it should be close to how it was [movespeed 100; movepacing 1.6] (160). I'll update the var changes once I've formed a more comprehensive list of what else needs modifying to suit non-SVN functionality.
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby bonifarz » 19 Aug 2014 10:01

Bobbo wrote:Okay, the faster running is very noticeable and feels odd. It's opening up a whole new world of parkour stuff I probably shouldn't be able to do. My other thought was it breaking time trial maps and maybe normal maps (eg, jumping to places where you can normally due to extra velocity).
I did not get that impression when testing Tuto offline for differences to SVN mechanics. I'll have another careful look with current SVN data. EDIT: Right, the difference is small, yet noticeable for the difficulty of the "expert" section (the little extra speed in svn does help to make it less frustrating). Ah, sure, backported vars can lead to odd results.
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby qreeves » 19 Aug 2014 10:04

The difference with the updated movepacing setting is negligible, he's referring to the vars running on play.re which I backported because it is at r6550.
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby Bobbo » 19 Aug 2014 14:24

I see you made some changes since top running speed is lower now but it feels nicer.

I've noticed a few others playing today though:

Bomber hold point time being reduced to 1s -- Love it, was meaning to suggest it but never did (bigger fish I wanted fried).

DAC/DTF overthrow/point time -- It's really long, and boring now, I know we have quick-dac, but overthrowing and capturing a point feels like it takes 30s to do which is just too long. Likewise the point accumulation is low, points should be in the range of that of hold bomber ball.


Shotgun has been nerfed yet more. shotgundamage1 6 from 8, shotgunattackdelay1 850 from 750 and shotgunflakdamage2 6 from 8. I don't mind /too/ much on sg1, but I don't see the purpose of the change on sg2, sg2 was a weapon that required skill to get good shots on, but the reduced damage on it now is making it less useful due to the high attackdelay if you miss.

smgstun (didn't bother checking other weapons on master server) is still the same as it was before... And on second look I think I got smghitpush and smgkickpush confused, either way, the hitpush is really strong now, or was when I made this topic on master server.
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby qreeves » 20 Aug 2014 02:18

The code for stun in SVN is different, there are new vars that the back port doesn't take into account.

As for SG2, 20*6 = 120, combined with the bleeding residual, so think about it for a sec. Shotgun is still way overpowered but has probably reached the limit of effective nerfing now. The idea from here on in is to try to make the other weapons balanced in comparison to it. This is a common problem with weapons like the shotgun in first person shooters, they have to be somewhat overpowered to "feel right".

Defend is, 1 mark every 100 ms, 100 marks needed to overthrow/secure. 1*100*100 = 10000 ms = 10 secs. So this is 20 seconds (and 10 in quick because there is no overthrow), which in my opinion is correct. If 20 seconds is so painstaking then use quick - or we could make quick default and the two step process a mutator. Defend is supposed to be harder than CTF because it forces you to sit in one spot and defend a static element.
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby Bobbo » 20 Aug 2014 11:41

qreeves wrote:As for SG2, 20*6 = 120, combined with the bleeding residual, so think about it for a sec. Shotgun is still way overpowered but has probably reached the limit of effective nerfing now. The idea from here on in is to try to make the other weapons balanced in comparison to it. This is a common problem with weapons like the shotgun in first person shooters, they have to be somewhat overpowered to "feel right".


Is this the moment where I can suggest you nerf SMG because it has the most DPS?

Regardless of silly arguments, before the reduction most sg2 shots which weren't instant kill done 83 damage, which isn't enough to kill a person with bleed anyway and gives a large chance for someone else to steal the kill.

If you want to reduce the damage the flak does, at least give it back to the projectile so it still does the same damage but isn't as powerful when used in a spray-n-pray style, or reduce the attackdelay. 1250ms for a shot that probably won't kill an enemy wasn't nearly worth it before, now you're reducing it further. Having already reduce it's range to a quarter (or third?) of what it was.


Defend is, 1 mark every 100 ms, 100 marks needed to overthrow/secure. 1*100*100 = 10000 ms = 10 secs. So this is 20 seconds (and 10 in quick because there is no overthrow), which in my opinion is correct. If 20 seconds is so painstaking then use quick - or we could make quick default and the two step process a mutator. Defend is supposed to be harder than CTF because it forces you to sit in one spot and defend a static element.

It's really boring at 20s, 10-16 would be okay. The points also need to be one a second like in bomber ball, 10s/point is way too long. Playing DAC-dutility today, 10s is just too long, it's too easy to defend because you can be back at the base before they're even half done.
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby qreeves » 20 Aug 2014 12:27

1 point a second per base is too much, remember bomber only has one effective affinity. How about 5s for all of them? (secure/overthrow/gain-point) So in quick it'll take 5s and in regular 10s with 5s/point. Anything more complicated than that involves unhooking points from the base secure time.
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby Bobbo » 20 Aug 2014 14:45

qreeves wrote:1 point a second per base is too much, remember bomber only has one effective affinity. How about 5s for all of them? (secure/overthrow/gain-point) So in quick it'll take 5s and in regular 10s with 5s/point.

This sounds reasonable

Anything more complicated than that involves unhooking points from the base secure time.

This should be done anyway, as it's fairer on people. I haven't tested but I assume you have the hold the based uncontested for the entire period to get the point? If so, 10 or even 5 seconds is enough to stop people from getting points without even taking the base from them by just running in to interrupt the timer.


Additionally something I've noticed is that if someone is in progress of overthrowing/securing a point and an enemy enters, the zone being contested doesn't seem to matter which is odd, and rather annoying in multi-king dac.

Furthermore, the topic I linked earlier about capture|bomber|defendbuff would help a lot with DAC playing nicer, imo.
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby Calinou » 20 Aug 2014 17:35

In Sauerbraten, the base must not be attacked (it's attacked if a progress bar appears above it) in order to score points, every 10 seconds.

In Red Eclipse, up to 1.4, your team used to have a scoring bonus for staying near a base that was yours (one per base at most). It was removed in SVN. I guess the bases don't score points if they're attacked.
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby qreeves » 21 Aug 2014 02:58

Time held is cumulative unless the control point is overthrown (wherein which it resets), an owner's presence is only required in king-dnc. I just prodded the repository and found that I did already split the points for hold and occupy. So it sort of goes like this at the moment: 1 point (defendpoints = 1) is generated every 100ms (defendinterval = 100), where enemies need 100 interval points (defendoccupy = 100) to overthrow/secure, and owners need 100 interval points (defendhold = 100) to increase the team score. I think reducing defendinterval to 50 should do the trick; we want defendoccupy/defendhold to be larger numbers as it makes the progress meters more fluid.
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby Bobbo » 21 Aug 2014 09:45

So that would mean holders would get one point every 5 seconds instead?

I'd also like to revisit some things mentioned earlier; shotgun, smg and rifle:

Even people who hated sg's 'opness' (skiing) thinks damage reduction is unreasonable/unneeded, although I'm quite found of the idea of taking that damage lost from sg2 and adding it to the projectile as I said earlier.

My comment about nerfing smg was actually semi-serious, smg1 burst DPS is 166.67 now, and smg2 is at a whopping 310.00, the weapon anywhere near smg2 is mine2 at 275.00, which isn't really countable, the next is pistol1 at 200.

As for the rifle, the reduced damage wasn't needed. You're reasoning was that a non-buffed headshot wouldn't kill buffed players, but that only happened if the target had less than 120 health, if the target had been damaged that much it seems pretty reasonable that they die from it.
This change has also meant that a buffed headshot can't oneshot a buffed player, before I thought this was nicely done that a buffed shot could kill a buffed player.
Reverting the damage reduction and converting the +50 shield bank buff to resistance is a much better way to handle not wanting non-buffed headshots killing buffed players, and is much fairer in terms of how buffing works in general.
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby qreeves » 21 Aug 2014 10:13

With regard to sg2 and smg1, I agree. With smg2 it can be quite difficult due to its inherent randomness, I want to take a better look at its settings before committing either way. The remark about buffing wasn't meant to infer it was balanced around buffing, but rather what is expected to happen under normal conditions (aka. non-buffed). A buffed sniper could very well take out a non-buffed player, and pick off people fairly easily. The problem here is probably more about the not so perfect shots, to which the suggested increase to leg/torso damage would probably compensate. This would make any necessary follow up shots easier to get a kill out of too.
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby Bobbo » 21 Aug 2014 10:32

qreeves wrote:The remark about buffing wasn't meant to infer it was balanced around buffing, but rather what is expected to happen under normal conditions (aka. non-buffed). A buffed sniper could very well take out a non-buffed player, and pick off people fairly easily. The problem here is probably more about the not so perfect shots, to which the suggested increase to leg/torso damage would probably compensate. This would make any necessary follow up shots easier to get a kill out of too.


I don't think I understand what you're getting at. You originally stated your reasoning was so that you couldn't hit a buffed player without a buff for more than 100 damage with rifle2, but now you're talking about buffed players shooting non-buffed?

If I follow on from what I think you're saying though, expect a head shot to kill, which it does. I also expect a hit on a non-buffed player for 100+ damage to kill them, which it doesn't always since they can have more than 100 health from a recent buff, hence my suggestion about changing how buff works.

A rifle user doesn't need to be buffed to take out other players, except the little help they get from 25% extra damage.


I'd also like to add this doesn't stop other weapons from one-shot head-shot killing buffed players, such as sg1, sg2, smg2 etc.
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby qreeves » 21 Aug 2014 11:21

qreeves wrote:It has been reduced to 100 so that only a non-buffed headshot will instant kill a non-buffed player. This brings the skill required to use the rifle in line with the amount of damage it does, and part of a major revision of the oft-abused rifle2. It should be hard to kill someone on the other side of the map.

The other weapons mentioned are closer range, and with sg1/sg2 I already made the necessary corrections to bring them, factoring in a margin of error and use on semi-out-of-range or retreating targets. I've been doing this systematically for a while to bridge the gap between the low and high skill tiers. People should have a chance to parlay before being killed, so goes the old song and dance. I'm aiming for casual, not a replica of modern war game sniper-fests.

This isn't a simple numbers game, if it was, there would be no balancing to do because we'd already know the correct answer thanks to a spreadsheet. There are mutually exclusive aspects to some weapons that don't balance the ledger quite so nicely (I feel like I'm repeating myself now). Those who were good with the rifle will still pwn regardless, because they use it to stay out of range of other players and render their obviously chosen shotgun useless. It is also the most accurate weapon in the game.
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby Bobbo » 21 Aug 2014 12:07

qreeves wrote:Those who were good with the rifle will still pwn regardless, because they use it to stay out of range of other players and render their obviously chosen shotgun useless.


Clearly you're not too familiar with rifle users, there's two kinds: Those who camp at locations and do long range sniping and those who don't.

The latter kind usually use rifle2 to get kills IN range of most other weapons. Excusing the anecdotal evidence, I'll use rifle against people shooting at me from 20m, not 200m. In fact, I don't even shoot at people at distances much above 120m unless they're shooting at me with a rifle, generally it's quicker, easier, or safer to traverse the map using parkour to get to them or find a better spot to rifle2 them from.

Generally, those who use rifle at long range aren't as good as those at short range use (to clarify, long range in this context is over 100m (ghost bridge-to-bridge) and short range is less than).

Regardless, this change is pretty minor on this fact since both of these types of players are nearly always going for headshots, which would still get a kill, except the recent changes (including this reduced damage) is devaluing rifle2 usage. rifle1 is now very, very strong again, being able to two-shot players for head/torso hits and has a much lower attackdelay than rifle2.

Looking at weapon ranges, just about every weapon can deal with short ranged rifle users (except sword and flamer). plasma1, 2 and flamer1 can be used to conceal your position slightly making headshots harder, and the others can generally reach those ranges (although their effectiveness might be pretty crappy). But even so, at 100m being 1 degree out on your aim is enough for a headshot to be a legshot.

It currently seems like you're trying to nerf something that isn't a problem by changing something and then saying you changed it for another reason which isn't all that related. =/

(PS: I'm guessing you haven't commented on the buff suggestion because you don't like it, mind explaining why?)
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Re: Backported variable questions

Postby qreeves » 22 Aug 2014 02:44

This is me, tired of arguing, explaining, and nitpicking. You're obviously never going to listen to me, so I am done listening to you.
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