Backported variable questions

[Bobbo]

I've been away on camp and now I'm back to find post r6550 variables have been backported, I have some questions about some changes:

Why has smghitpush1 been multiplied by 10 and smghitpush2 been doubled?

Why has rifledamage2 been reduced by a third?

Why has movespeed been increased to 125?

[qreeves]

To be honest, some of these variables shouldn't have been back ported. There is a reason r6550 breaks protocol.

1) SVN has no impact stun for many weapons now, so the hit push was restored to pre-stun values to counteract the extra player velocity retained. SMG is a medium range defense weapon for pushing players back, it is modeled after the Heavy's chain gun in TF2. See .

2) It has been reduced to 100 so that only a non-buffed headshot will instant kill a non-buffed player. This brings the skill required to use the rifle in line with the amount of damage it does, and part of a major revision of the oft-abused rifle2. It should be hard to kill someone on the other side of the map.

3) SVN changed the way running works. Whether you are running or not now depends on your velocity, you build up speed and then you're able to transition into a state where you start moving faster. This system is actually modelled on Sonic the Hedgehog, it is slightly more realistic and natural feeling. I increased the base movement speed and decreased the multiplier for running speed so that it had less impact on the player's ability to move from a standing position. Basically I tested it until it felt right compared to r6550, so hopefully most people won't notice. The back port should probably set movepacing to 1.3 as the var was renamed moverun. See and .

[Bobbo]

[qreeves]

[bonifarz]

[qreeves]

The difference with the updated movepacing setting is negligible, he's referring to the vars running on play.re which I backported because it is at r6550.

[Bobbo]

I see you made some changes since top running speed is lower now but it feels nicer.

I've noticed a few others playing today though:

Bomber hold point time being reduced to 1s -- Love it, was meaning to suggest it but never did (bigger fish I wanted fried).

DAC/DTF overthrow/point time -- It's really long, and boring now, I know we have quick-dac, but overthrowing and capturing a point feels like it takes 30s to do which is just too long. Likewise the point accumulation is low, points should be in the range of that of hold bomber ball.


Shotgun has been nerfed yet more. shotgundamage1 6 from 8, shotgunattackdelay1 850 from 750 and shotgunflakdamage2 6 from 8. I don't mind /too/ much on sg1, but I don't see the purpose of the change on sg2, sg2 was a weapon that required skill to get good shots on, but the reduced damage on it now is making it less useful due to the high attackdelay if you miss.

smgstun (didn't bother checking other weapons on master server) is still the same as it was before... And on second look I think I got smghitpush and smgkickpush confused, either way, the hitpush is really strong now, or was when I made this topic on master server.

[qreeves]

The code for stun in SVN is different, there are new vars that the back port doesn't take into account.

As for SG2, 20*6 = 120, combined with the bleeding residual, so think about it for a sec. Shotgun is still way overpowered but has probably reached the limit of effective nerfing now. The idea from here on in is to try to make the other weapons balanced in comparison to it. This is a common problem with weapons like the shotgun in first person shooters, they have to be somewhat overpowered to "feel right".

Defend is, 1 mark every 100 ms, 100 marks needed to overthrow/secure. 1*100*100 = 10000 ms = 10 secs. So this is 20 seconds (and 10 in quick because there is no overthrow), which in my opinion is correct. If 20 seconds is so painstaking then use quick - or we could make quick default and the two step process a mutator. Defend is supposed to be harder than CTF because it forces you to sit in one spot and defend a static element.

[Bobbo]

[qreeves]

1 point a second per base is too much, remember bomber only has one effective affinity. How about 5s for all of them? (secure/overthrow/gain-point) So in quick it'll take 5s and in regular 10s with 5s/point. Anything more complicated than that involves unhooking points from the base secure time.

[Bobbo]

[Calinou]

In Sauerbraten, the base must not be attacked (it's attacked if a progress bar appears above it) in order to score points, every 10 seconds.

In Red Eclipse, up to 1.4, your team used to have a scoring bonus for staying near a base that was yours (one per base at most). It was removed in SVN. I guess the bases don't score points if they're attacked.

[qreeves]

Time held is cumulative unless the control point is overthrown (wherein which it resets), an owner's presence is only required in king-dnc. I just prodded the repository and found that I did already split the points for hold and occupy. So it sort of goes like this at the moment: 1 point (defendpoints = 1) is generated every 100ms (defendinterval = 100), where enemies need 100 interval points (defendoccupy = 100) to overthrow/secure, and owners need 100 interval points (defendhold = 100) to increase the team score. I think reducing defendinterval to 50 should do the trick; we want defendoccupy/defendhold to be larger numbers as it makes the progress meters more fluid.

[Bobbo]

So that would mean holders would get one point every 5 seconds instead?

I'd also like to revisit some things mentioned earlier; shotgun, smg and rifle:

Even people who hated sg's 'opness' (skiing) thinks damage reduction is unreasonable/unneeded, although I'm quite found of the idea of taking that damage lost from sg2 and adding it to the projectile as I said earlier.

My comment about nerfing smg was actually semi-serious, smg1 burst DPS is 166.67 now, and smg2 is at a whopping 310.00, the weapon anywhere near smg2 is mine2 at 275.00, which isn't really countable, the next is pistol1 at 200.

As for the rifle, the reduced damage wasn't needed. You're reasoning was that a non-buffed headshot wouldn't kill buffed players, but that only happened if the target had less than 120 health, if the target had been damaged that much it seems pretty reasonable that they die from it.
This change has also meant that a buffed headshot can't oneshot a buffed player, before I thought this was nicely done that a buffed shot could kill a buffed player.
Reverting the damage reduction and converting the +50 shield bank buff to resistance is a much better way to handle not wanting non-buffed headshots killing buffed players, and is much fairer in terms of how buffing works in general.

[qreeves]

With regard to sg2 and smg1, I agree. With smg2 it can be quite difficult due to its inherent randomness, I want to take a better look at its settings before committing either way. The remark about buffing wasn't meant to infer it was balanced around buffing, but rather what is expected to happen under normal conditions (aka. non-buffed). A buffed sniper could very well take out a non-buffed player, and pick off people fairly easily. The problem here is probably more about the not so perfect shots, to which the suggested increase to leg/torso damage would probably compensate. This would make any necessary follow up shots easier to get a kill out of too.

[Bobbo]

[qreeves]

[Bobbo]

[qreeves]

This is me, tired of arguing, explaining, and nitpicking. You're obviously never going to listen to me, so I am done listening to you.