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Red Eclipse • View topic - This should not be happening.

This should not be happening.

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This should not be happening.

Postby freezurbern » 02 Aug 2014 13:55

20140802095128.jpg

I believe this hints at larger problems in the community or team balancing attempts.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby SniperGoth » 02 Aug 2014 14:20

Lord Stark plays very very good.
I don't think there's any problem with pro's in the game.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Honno » 02 Aug 2014 14:48

First lets get a bigger playerbase :/

Though for temporary measures, I would enable changing teams on request for play.re.net as it's not refined enough, causing for frustrating unbalances which could be easily rectified. We can just get mods to limit people if they abuse that, or maybe only enable it to people with auth keys (who are generally more trustworthy).
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Calinou » 02 Aug 2014 18:10

I don't understand what's wrong. Teams are randomly balanced, there's no way to pre-determine a player skill, like in almost all games.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Scatter » 02 Aug 2014 21:00

Where is your problem? Better team won.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Honno » 02 Aug 2014 21:13

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby freezurbern » 02 Aug 2014 21:34

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby radiant » 02 Aug 2014 22:48

Why is there a 13-player game taking place on Darkness?
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby korsi » 02 Aug 2014 23:51

Well i see a problem if clan members want to play on same side regardless of balance.
Its very hard to take any action on the situation even authed. Some kind of tool to easily force two players to swap sides would do. Now it happens like "would u switch to my team if ill go to your team" and thats time consuming.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby shirepirate » 03 Aug 2014 00:38

problems in balancing is not really news. but trying the only alternative balancing method that exists now produces even worse results. so, a more intelligent balancing method is needed. basically something that accounts for both the determined skill of a player as long as he/she's been on the server as well as numbering teams appropriately. ideally something that accounts for player skill based on auth codes also. this would produce very well balanced games.

balancing now is a joke. don't say it just to bitch, because everyone that plays team games already knows it. i think i've already given suggestions before about how it could be improved. if more constructive suggestions need to be formulated or calculations need to be planned, maybe it could be explained in detail how balancing works now. then it would at least be simpler to see what needs to be changed.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby qreeves » 03 Aug 2014 01:34

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Duck » 03 Aug 2014 01:40

As a daily player, I can tell you this happens more than it should. Often in deathmatches, the losing teams are down by almost a hundred. As you probably know, balancing happens by being outnumbered, not outmatched, so I would suggest (if possible) for there to be a balancing system where if a team is too outmatched, a pro from the other team joins the outmatched side.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Honno » 03 Aug 2014 08:54

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby gynter » 03 Aug 2014 10:03

Is mod allowed to blance games by moving players or is this concidered abuse of power?
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby SylvieLorxu » 03 Aug 2014 10:28

Oh, we're doing this discussion again. Time for my two cents:
1. Force-switching people between teams does more harm than good.
Most of the time, one player is still way better than others combined, and will just change team A having power over team B to team B having power over team A. Besides that, it's an altogether frustrating experience for the player being switched and the others. Often enough, when I play with someone new to RE, I make sure we play on the same team because it's not fun for a new player to be wrecked by a friend who has been playing the game for much longer. Having to play against your best friends when you want to play with them is not a fun thing.

2. Bad matches happen, deal with it.
Yes, Red Eclipse does balancing and sometimes it fails. Sure, it's annoying, but "this should not be happening" doesn't help. The only thing we can possibly do is figure out ways to decrease the change of balancing to fail, while being careful to not annoy players too much. Currently, our balancing system seems to tend a lot to Team Fortress 2's side, which does a whole lot of balancing, but even that system can't prevent the occasional horribly unbalanced matches. Balancing is a terribly complicated thing. We're not talking "Player A has 32 being awesome points and player B only 15", we're talking "Player A is better is this specific situations against those specific players who are less able to counter their techniques, yet player A stands no chance against player B".
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby qreeves » 03 Aug 2014 10:48

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Honno » 03 Aug 2014 12:10

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby korsi » 03 Aug 2014 14:48

imho manual balancing works best. Easy to use balancing/moderating interface and enough moderators would do.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Calinou » 03 Aug 2014 16:53

I think not balancing by moving players during a game is better, balance using bots instead (of higher skill). Nothing's more annoying than being moved during a game. Does that happen in real life sports?
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby freezurbern » 03 Aug 2014 17:45

I think pre-game balancing would be the most ideal situation. obviously this is one of the most difficult ways of doing it. so how would one do that?
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Honno » 03 Aug 2014 18:42

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby shirepirate » 03 Aug 2014 23:52

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Duck » 03 Aug 2014 23:54

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby freezurbern » 04 Aug 2014 00:05

20140803193828.jpg
I'm not sure what I should comment here.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby qreeves » 04 Aug 2014 00:44

It comes down to the simple fact that giving people unrestricted ability to change teams is a bad idea, as it gets used more to switch to the winning team (thus further unbalancing a team already doing poorly) than it is used for more noble purposes. This also increases the need for a moderator to intervene, which isn't always an option. (maybe people with user accounts can override this? if they behave badly they lose their account?)

I'm tired of having to micromanage a community full of people working at odds with me, and each other. I'm not turning off forced team balance, stop trying to demand/guilt/coerce me into doing so. Do what I ask for once and look for solutions that fix the problems with the balancing, or fork the game and go off on your own. This is the last time I will tell anyone to respect my wishes, from now on the ban hammer is going to be my only response.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby freezurbern » 04 Aug 2014 00:57

I have an idea! If two teams are equal in players, but one team has a lower score, put a joining player on the lesser team instead of the winning team. Better ideas to follow...
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby qreeves » 04 Aug 2014 01:18

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Honno » 04 Aug 2014 01:21

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Duck » 04 Aug 2014 01:29

Perhaps there should be a test to determine the skill of a player every month. Say there was a ranking system, from 1-10, 1 being total noob and 10 being aimbot. This sounds very complicated but doing this can help determine balanced teams before the game begins.

example - there are six players playing deathmatch
- two are rank 7
- one is rank 5
- one is rank 4
- two are rank 1

There are a lot of ways this can be unbalanced, two rank 7's in the same team, one rank 7 with rank 5 and 4, you get the point. But if the server knows how skillful the players are individually, it can easily sum up that for proper balance, the rank 7's can't be in same team and rank 5 and 4 can't be in same team, thus a more balanced game.

Once again I know this is very complicating but please try to understand because english is my second language.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby freezurbern » 04 Aug 2014 01:52

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Duck » 04 Aug 2014 02:18

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby qreeves » 04 Aug 2014 03:06

External ranking stuff requires a lot of back end work/overhaul that I neither have the time or patience for. User accounts are still manually managed in a config file. Maybe clients could tell the server if they are novice, casual, or pro (and default to novice if the question is unanswered). Remember: Just because you don't notice me playing online doesn't mean I don't do it fairly frequently (I even sit on servers just spectating sometimes). People target and bug me, so I play anonymously to avoid frustration. I already knew this unfair balancing was happening more than we would like it to, months before anyone even mentioned it. I don't see any rush to jump headfirst without proper thought on the issue, because it isn't going to make any difference now until 1.5 is released - I won't be back porting changes to 1.4.x. The fact the new system is almost as problematic as the old one is evidence that the issue can't be solved with a trivial fix.

It is hard to make a self regulating system that doesn't heavily rely on some form of human input (which is often flawed or susceptible to misuse). It should be noted that I tried self regulation for almost all of the last 8 years and the trend is that the more players there are, the more self regulation is abused. I have seen regulars (and even some moderators) switch to the winning team just to be a dick, so forgive me if I don't give humans the benefit of the doubt here. You're not the ones who gets asked to step in when people are misbehaving, I am, and I'm tired of having to be around 24/7 just so people can play a game in peace. I want more automation, and less intervention.

Interacting with Red Eclipse lately has been trying for me. I've abandoned IRC because I'd constantly return to highlights of my name consisting of "quin: fix stun" etc. You have no idea how annoying that gets when you can't yell at the person for being an asshat because they're not online when you get back, and so innocent people have been subjected to my misdirected rage. I am bipolar, I don't always have the ability to restrain myself when people are getting on my nerves. The more those people place demands on and generally disregard me, the more I find myself drifting away from the project. I have even seriously considered making 1.5 the final release and moving on, making a new singleplayer game just so I don't have to deal with headaches caused by people doing the wrong thing in multiplayer.

I'd love to he able to delegate work on the project to other people, especially when it comes to the more complicated programming and back end work that is too much for me to handle. Unfortunately those that have demonstrated the necessary skill to do this are people who have also proven to not be team players. They would rather argue semantics over the style of the code, instead of respecting the guidelines set out by the project.

The multiplayer FPS genre is about to get overly competitive again due to the release or announcements of higher grade games for free by commercial developers (Toxikk, Unreal Tournament). A one man show using an aging engine has no hope of competing with that, so it may be time for a change anyway. Red Eclipse is pretty much a complete game now, and it achieved what it set out to do. I could just yank out incomplete stuff like auto balancing and push 1.5 now.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Honno » 04 Aug 2014 09:26

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Bobbo » 04 Aug 2014 09:40

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby flblindman » 04 Aug 2014 15:26

you cant write an algorithm to counter act human nature, people dont like to lose. In some cases the better players will switch but you cant force this, does more harm than good, also discourages daily play imho.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby SniperGoth » 04 Aug 2014 16:45

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Calinou » 04 Aug 2014 21:11

Prevent team switching in the last minutes of the game and perhaps during overtime?

Oh, obviously, prevent switching to a team with more points, except if it's much less balanced. Xonotic prevents win-switching fairly well.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Prophet » 04 Aug 2014 22:33

Thanks for the compliments SniperGoth :D
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby qreeves » 05 Aug 2014 02:57

The code base isn't as messy as you would like to think, it is just far more complicated than Cube 2's. The reason I don't directly merge third party code is because I have to ensure it not only works as intended (and is free of issues or even intentional exploits), but that it passes the standard required to keep eihrul on board backporting and reviewing code for speed. It takes more than one patch to demonstrate that level of trust, but even when we write it ourselves we review that patch for integrity and purpose. There's also a difference when working on your own, it may not be the way it should be done, which you would eventually learn (just as I have had to do - I taught myself how to write code). I could just let it be a free for all, and you can end up with viruses/trojans, and no lead programmer.

For the record I haven't even been in front of my computer much in the last month, I have been using my mobile device. The only non critical thing I have even done recently was version-info, the rest has all been fixes of bugs posted here. As for opinions, well, I started ignoring some people because they were too aggressive and thoughtless about the way they were treating me in the process of offering them. Can you blame me?

We may be able to use the semantics for "teambalance 1" (by skill, then number) instead of "2" (by number, then skill). I am unsure how this would behave with enforced team balance though. Would likely have to be rewritten.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby shirepirate » 05 Aug 2014 04:32

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Rabidbutton » 05 Aug 2014 07:01

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby qreeves » 05 Aug 2014 07:43

UPDATE: contains some tweaks to sort by an accumulated "skill" level (the server tracks the total points earned over a session and divides that by the time played during that session). When the match starts, it should rebalance teams by moving the least skilled players to the underbalanced team (so, going top-down with skill, then bottom-up for number). I've also enabled a tweak that lets registered players force a team swap if there is someone on the requested team with a lower "skill" (so you can't swap out people who are better than you, but skilled players can try to balance themselves). These changes have been pushed to the SVN test server too. Some playtesting would be good.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Bobbo » 05 Aug 2014 11:46

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby qreeves » 05 Aug 2014 11:53

1. It is done per server, per session. A review of the code suggests it is lost when the server is shutdown.
2. Sessions are based on auth handles if available, falling back to ip address and player name combination. So no.
3. No. It isn't a very human readable number and changes every time it is accessed. The swap is decided by the server, not the client requesting it.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Honno » 06 Aug 2014 10:00

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Duck » 06 Aug 2014 19:56

Leader of *ACE*
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby qreeves » 14 Aug 2014 08:01

I have done a basic backport of the new team balancing mechanic to play.redeclipse.net, so now it can be tested a bit better.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Honno » 14 Aug 2014 09:30

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby qreeves » 14 Aug 2014 11:23

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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Honno » 14 Aug 2014 12:23

<3

All we need now is pistol with zapper vars!
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Bobbo » 18 Aug 2014 17:49

Having played today, it might be a good idea to make team balance move players even if there's only 1 player difference to the losing team.

Just now I had a game of me + one guy against one guy and we won by 10x the points.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Duck » 19 Aug 2014 02:43

Leader of *ACE*
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby qreeves » 19 Aug 2014 07:36

There must have been some other factor in play for that to happen, and would probably be best caught with a demo. The only way that you should have been paired with that other dude in the first is if your skill was equal to or less than the guy on the other team, or someone else exited spectator during match-up to change the balance temporarily. Rebalancing one person based on a moving target is probably not the best idea, which is why it is done so selectively. I have to balance balancing because while it may be good idea to do something, it is not always practical. A majority of people won't like being reassigned.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Bobbo » 20 Aug 2014 17:30

This is actually a bit worse than before, but I know why. As before, teams are sorted when the player clicks to join the game, rather than pooling everyone together and then sorting them.

This is resulting in one or two good players being placed on one team together with then the other team getting nubs to make up the points, but then the game starts and a bunch of nubs from the other team gets xfer to the team with pros on, resulting in one team with a few good players + noobs and one mediocre team. Teams need to be pool then sorted when the game starts, otherwise this system is trash.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby qreeves » 21 Aug 2014 01:29

Let's try speaking like you for a sec.

Bobbo needs to start paying attention before he posts, otherwise the reports and assessments he supplies are trash.

Translated: give me a damn demo like I asked instead of telling me how it is supposed to work. You don't know what technical limitations I'm trying to work around.
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby Bobbo » 21 Aug 2014 23:46

Attachments
20140822003039.dmo
(2.36 MiB) Downloaded 73 times
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Re: This should not be happening.

Postby qreeves » 22 Aug 2014 02:38

I'm not going to sit here and hand-hold everyone trying to have their input on the game. It isn't my job to explain the code to you. I told you how to help me address the issue, and it wasn't asking for a half assed analysis of my "trash". You have no idea how much some of the things you say really pisses me off, do you? Thanks for the demo, now I can review the order of events.
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